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Topic: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
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    Question Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Greetings,

    I'm working on a Delius score, from 1890. The Clarinets in A were easy enough to score with Finale, because in "edit staff attributes," you just pick the A transposition.

    But now i'm on Horns in F, and the staff for them on the written score does not have any sharps (or flats). Is this concert pitch, surely it's not A which would also not show sharps and flats?

    There isn't a concert pitch or c choice in the edit staff atrributes window, there is a box to check for "none" but when i check that it shows one sharp on the Key sig of the staff.

    If it is concert pitch, unless i'm just missing it, i'm not seeing a way to place just one (or four) staffs into concert pitch without it doing the whole score. IE: the dispay in concert pitch.

    Is there a way?

    If not, i don't mind leaving it transposed in F on the Finale staff i guess...

    should i copy these notes on some other staff, one that is in C, then transpose them down a fifth, then cut and paste into the F Horn's Staff, would that do the trick? Or how would you do it?

    Thanks
    David

  2. #2

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Orchestral Horn parts typically are written with no key sig regardless of key. Accidentals are explicitly written in. Assume Horn in F unless otherwise indicated.

  3. #3

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Leaf
    Or how would you do it?
    Hi David,

    I prefer to compose in concert pitch and use the Finale menu option:
    Document-->Display in Concert Pitch.

    -- Ken

  4. #4

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    to have transposed horns but no key signature use the "chromatic transposition" option in the staff tool option for that staff.

    there are two drop down windows for transposition. the top one is for transposition with a key signature change, while the lower is for transposition without.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
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    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Thanks very much everyone for the info and help!

    Thanks Michel, that worked. It first put it the same key as the score when i chose the F -up p5, then i checked the box "ignore key sig" and now i'm ready to roll.

    It's written just like you described, Craig.

    Ken, i want to make one like that for each one i compose, and learn all the traspositions so that i can read them either way, and maybe compose some that way. This one i'm just copying in Finale as close to exactly as written as possible, for a starting point to render with GPO instruments.

    David

  6. #6

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig F
    Orchestral Horn parts typically are written with no key sig regardless of key. Accidentals are explicitly written in. Assume Horn in F unless otherwise indicated.
    This was typical in Delius' day, i.e. in the 19th and up to the early 20th centuries. Nowadays it's standard practice for horns (and trumpets) to use key signatures same as all the other instruments.

    Since you're copying a Delius score, it's fine to copy Delius' practice. I just wanted to point out that it isn't preferred in newer pieces.
    Dan Powers
    www.danielpowers.info

    "It's easier to be a composer than it is to compose."
    --Ray Luke (1928-2010)

  7. #7

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Quote Originally Posted by danpowers
    This was typical in Delius' day, i.e. in the 19th and up to the early 20th centuries. Nowadays it's standard practice for horns (and trumpets) to use key signatures same as all the other instruments.

    Since you're copying a Delius score, it's fine to copy Delius' practice. I just wanted to point out that it isn't preferred in newer pieces.
    Amen. The practice of no key signatures was only because when horns (and trumpts) first came into the orchestra we could only play in one key because there were no valves. No need for a key signature if all of your notes are in the key. So they wrote the horns in the pitch of the piece and all notes played would be diatonic based on the harmonic series of the key. That changed when the horn players began using their right hands to alter the pitch, thus accidentals were added but the piece was still in concert pitch because the horn would still only be based in the key written.

    Now that we have valves, we can play just like any other instrument. We are perfectly capable of reading a key signature!

  8. #8

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    I direct all transposition enthusiasts to the GARRITAN WIKI, where I have prepared answers to this and other questions about transposition.

    Jim
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  9. #9

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig F
    Orchestral Horn parts typically are written with no key sig regardless of key. Accidentals are explicitly written in. Assume Horn in F unless otherwise indicated.
    With all due respect to the OP, this practice is no longer a "Best practice." It is a throwback to days without valves.(Shameless plug ON) Please see the GARRITAN WIKI article on transposition. (SP OFF)

    Jim W.
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  10. #10

    Re: Transposition Confusion - Need Finale Help

    and with all due respect to Jim, if you are writing music that is not "tonal" in the traditional sense, you will find many musicians who prefer to have scores without key signatures for those transposing instruments.

    I normally write my music without key signatures since it really isn't in a single key for very long anyways.
    I have just been asked to supply an alternate clarinet part for my clarinet sonata WITHOUT the key signature.

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