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Topic: Kontrapunctus VII

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  1. #1

    Post Kontrapunctus VII

    I thought with all the Bach going around lately, I would add my brass choir arr. of contrapunctus VII from the Art of Fugue (written around 1749) Done with finale 2008 and GPO only. Please comment. Best wishes.
    John
    www.garritan.net/files/contrapunctus%20VII.mp3

  2. #2

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Thanks, Taylor - Your arrangement sounds nice in GPO. Are there perhaps some intonation issues cropping up? And could there have been some light touches of vibrato added on Trumpet sustained notes?

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  3. #3
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    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Taylor,

    Good effort here with the Bach. This is not an easy piece to set for brass.

    I think that I hear a couple of incorrect notes around meas. 5-6, an accidental not cancelled or something. Also, a little of reverb to give it better presence. You can use the Garritan Ambience, not too dry, with a twist of lemon Please do a quick review of the music input into Finale, there are definately incorrect notes going on here.

    Thanks for sharing it with us...good luck on future material.

    Gary

    www.garybricault.com

  4. #4

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Thanks for the input Gary,,,,,I went back through the entire piece trying to find wrong notes, especially meas. 4-8. No wrong notes as I can find using Bllreitkopf & Hartel complete works edition and went through it with an organist collegue of mine. Neither of us could find a wrong note in the transcription or mis-spelled/mis-transposed part.
    I guess I agree with the idea of vibrato in the sustained notes in the trumpets, although it will take running the piece through cubase with my keyboard to create it and probably take another 3 days of work to get the piece ready to record.
    The intonation errors are intentional using kp2 var 1, to make more realistic as hp in finale doesn't have that capability. HP set to baroque.
    Thanks again
    John

  5. #5

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Finally a relatively decent tuba part.

    Not a lot of people here either know how, or care to.

    I guess I should try to show all of you!!!!!



    Very awesome piece though. I love and probably always will, performing Bach in brass quintets. I can't get enough. I also loved playing Water Music, but that's a different story all together.
    Yours Truly,
    TubaJediMaster
    May the Fourth Be With You

    My demos:
    http://www.box.net/shared/ejtluyupfb

  6. #6

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    I always look forward to hearing a brass-only piece. Appreciate your taking the time to post this. Effective use of the instruments.

    I have to say, though, the use of Var 1 doesn't work for me. I suppose it's realistic if you're trying to imitate a group of very bad brass players, but with so many sustained notes, any brass player worth his salt would lip it into tune and not just sit there and play a badly tuned note for 6 counts! Var 1 is great for rapid notes where the player doesn't have time to adjust, but for me somewhat spoiled the performance in this instance.

    I would love to hear it with Var 1 turned down to zero or at least almost zero. Pretty please?!

    Tuning issues aside, I thought it worked very well. Thanks for posting!

    Owen

    (PS: Tubajedimr: I'm with you! I was a euphonium player for some time, then they let me loose on the tuba. 127 measures rest followed by two bottom Cs is no fun.)

  7. #7

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Hello again, John "taylorchandler"

    One of your replies and then Owen's follow up both mention the purposeful intonation shifts in your piece, using cc22 (Var 1). It moves me to say something more on that:

    --Wanting to make your MIDI renditions more realistic with tools like Var 1 are very well motivated, John. Far too often we'll hear pieces which are impossibly, digitally perfect, and it can be surprising that the musician/composer can seem unable to hear how unrealistically perfect their results are. They'll even justify the results, saying that top notch musicians sound that perfect - when of course, they don't, and can't.

    Using Var 1 as you explained, setting a value for it in KP2 - isn't accomplishing what you intend. It's meant to be a continuous controller, added sparingly, as Owen described. It's especially useful on fast passages, and in subtle amounts can be used at other spots where one wants more "chorusing" in a piece - but always applied in a continuous amount, not as an inserted set-and-forget level. I'll add that you'd rarely want it above a level of 30.

    Using it as a one-time-only dial setting results in just an incredibly out of tune band - and it's beyond "realistic" - it's comical and ultimately, annoying.

    You have Cubase and a keyboard - It would take literally just a few moments to record cc22 (Var 1) and maybe some cc23 in real time, keeping the wheel at Zero for the vast majority of the piece - moving it up just a bit here and there, as described above. Do that NOT on all tracks, just choose a very few lines which are being doubled by other instruments.

    I can 100% Guarantee you that if you would use this tool as I've described, your results would be truly more realistic, and not just nightmarishly out of tune.

    Hope you try that out!

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorchandler
    Thanks for the input Gary,,,,,I went back through the entire piece trying to find wrong notes, especially meas. 4-8. No wrong notes as I can find using Bllreitkopf & Hartel complete works edition and went through it with an organist collegue of mine. Neither of us could find a wrong note in the transcription or mis-spelled/mis-transposed part.
    It could be then, as Randy suggests, that the notes are so far out of tune they sound incorrect. I have found many times if they sound out of place, they most likely are.

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorchandler
    The intonation errors are intentional using kp2 var 1, to make more realistic as hp in finale doesn't have that capability. HP set to baroque.
    Thanks again
    John
    I have have done tons of music of this era and the bad notes just jump right out. That is also the proof that the entry is good, everything sounds like it all belongs together. Bending the intonation is not a good idea as the results it gives are not always what is desired. I would work with what Randy has proposed.

    Gary

    www.garybricault.com

  9. #9

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    Quote Originally Posted by taylorchandler
    Thanks for the input Gary,,,,,I went back through the entire piece trying to find wrong notes, especially meas. 4-8. No wrong notes as I can find using Bllreitkopf & Hartel complete works edition and went through it with an organist collegue of mine. Neither of us could find a wrong note in the transcription or mis-spelled/mis-transposed part.
    I guess I agree with the idea of vibrato in the sustained notes in the trumpets, although it will take running the piece through cubase with my keyboard to create it and probably take another 3 days of work to get the piece ready to record.
    The intonation errors are intentional using kp2 var 1, to make more realistic as hp in finale doesn't have that capability. HP set to baroque.
    Thanks again
    John
    Here are some wrong notes that I hear, based on my comparison with the Bärenreiter edition. To be sure that the measure numbers match: The second voice enters at the first beat of measure 2 in my edition.

    Measure 3, alto voice: The notes should be D, A, B-natural, C, D, E. I think you have a B-flat.

    Measure 3, tenor voice: The note B occurs twice in the measure: once in the fourth sixteenth-note of beat 2, the second in the third sixteenth-note of beat 4. In both cases, those notes should be B-natural, not B-flat.

    Measure 3, tenor voice: The G that ends beat 2 and the one that begins beat 3 should be tied together.

    Measure 5, tenor voice: The voice appears to drop down an octave starting at beat 2. That is, after the sustained D at the beginning of the measure, the voice goes down to A where it should go up to A.

    Measure 5, bass voice: The voice appears to enter an octave too high.

    Measure 12, tenor voice: The third sixteenth note in beat 2 (the first one being tied to the preceding quarter note) sounds like it's an E-flat; it should be E-natural.

    Measure 14: The bass voice appears to be missing entirely.

    Measure 19-20: The tenor voice appears to be an octave too low.


    I really hate to sound critical, but I think it would be worth carefully checking the MIDI version of this file against the score. It's too hard to do by listening, at least for me. If these notes really do match your Breitkopf and Hartel edition, then I'm surprised at how many discrepancies there are.

    If you're interested, I'd be willing to compare your MIDI file both to my Bärenreiter and also to the Bachgesellschaft edition.

  10. #10

    Re: Kontrapunctus VII

    The Art of Fugue (the title was actually provided by Bach's
    daughter's husband) was probably started around 1742-1743;
    with much of it dictated toward the end of Bach's life (his
    sight nearly gone) to his son, CPE Bach. Although it remained
    unfinished at his death, this masterful collection of canons and
    fugues remains one of the most fundamental studies for those
    of us with counterpoint imbued in our very fabric.

    Many, many thanks for bringing this forward -- The Art of
    Fugue
    is far, far too little heard; and there is so much to be
    learnt from the study of it!

    My best,


    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .

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