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Topic: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

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  1. #1

    How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Hi, I am trying to get a 'good' susp. cym. roll using Finale 2008 and the Garritan Library that comes with it. Right now, my roll sounds like it is on garbage can lids!
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  2. #2

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Quote Originally Posted by wrayer
    Hi, I am trying to get a 'good' susp. cym. roll using Finale 2008 and the Garritan Library that comes with it. Right now, my roll sounds like it is on garbage can lids!
    Hi Bill,

    Here's how I implement the susp. cym. roll in Finale 2008. I embed CC1 (mod. wheel) data to increase the roll volume. Note how the ModWheel dial on the K2 player reflects the midi controller data.

    Ken
    (RustyCrook)

    P.S. - If the following embedded clip keeps repeating, right-click the embedded clip and deselect the loop option.


  3. #3

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    First, Wow that is so cool how you presented it! I get the idea, I haven't used the keyboard for creating effects (plugged in, just lazy.) I can't seem to find the correct pitches to create the desired roll.

    I see you are in treble clef and are using G# to D#

    My clef is always the percussion clef, and I can't seem to locate the proper sounds. I looked in the Drum Map, but I can't seem to create that in the score. I will experiment some with this new idea.


    Thanks Ken
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  4. #4

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Quote Originally Posted by wrayer
    I haven't used the keyboard for creating effects
    I don't use the keyboard either for this task. I "draw" in the midi data using the Finale MIDI tool. Select Edit Continuous Data, selecting CC1 (mod wheel). Highlight the meaure of the roll, then use Scale to "paint" the MIDI data from 0 to 127 by increments of 2. This is one such task that I know would be much easier in a sequencer but the trade-off is being able to stay in the notation product during the entire composition phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by wrayer
    I can't seem to find the correct pitches to create the desired roll. I see you are in treble clef and are using G# to D#
    I must admit, I've not been able to reliably use the percussion mappings. I use a regular treble clef (shown an octave down from note actually played) so that I can get direct access to the chromatic midi notes in the C. I use the Directory of Instruments in the Garritan GPO manual to determine the notes I need for each percussion sample. G#5 is listed as cymbal roll with mod wheel and D#5 is a crash cymbal.

    Also, check out the Edit Staff Attributes option on the staff tool menu. Here one can set the staff properties and clef. I use "standard" staff properties rather than percussion but I know if I ever need to print parts, I'll have deal with this aspect. A project for another day.

    Experimentation can yield the sound you seek.

    Ken

  5. #5

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Thanks again Ken. You afre just a fountain of info on Finale. I will put to practice your information. I have always been a "notation" guy and if I can do it from Finale, I would rather than loading into SONAR and tweaking the sound. (I always try to keep the steps simple without too many 'xtra' steps.

    Thanks again.
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  6. #6

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Hey, Ken "RustyCrook"

    I want to thank you also for answering Bill's question with the video. It showed me for the first time that Finale users CAN access and use MIDI controller data directly!

    I have tried to find out over and over if that's the case, but especially with so many Finale users saying they can't do the subtle work with cc1 and other controllers that they'd like, -I had the impression this couldn't be done.

    Well then! This makes much more sense to me. I really thought that all playback in Finale was controlled Only with the insertion of hairpins and other commands.

    I can sympathize with Bill's confusion about where exactly that rolled cymbal is - Good heavens, with a keyboard you can instantly find any note you want. - And a keyboard can be used for data input in Finale, yes?--rather than all this mousing around?

    Having never used Finale, I'm always trying to understand better how notation users have to work.

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  7. #7

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    I have tried to find out over and over if that's the case, but especially with so many Finale users saying they can't do the subtle work with cc1 and other controllers that they'd like, -I had the impression this couldn't be done.
    Hi Randy,

    Truth be told, even though I have a sequencer (Sonar), everything I've produced so far has been generated exclusively with Finale and the Garritan libraries. If it were the case that Finale could not handle MIDI controller input, I'm sure that I would find myself further up the learning curve with a sequencer . . . but it is SO nice to be able to work in one package. One of my 2008 New Year's resolutions is to become proficient in Sonar.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    I can sympathize with Bill's confusion about where exactly that rolled cymbal is - Good heavens, with a keyboard you can instantly find any note you want. - And a keyboard can be used for data input in Finale, yes?--rather than all this mousing around?
    Yes, the keyboard can be used with Finale to input notes and record MIDI controller data in real time. Finale's HP (Human Performance) can be set to incorporate or ignore the MIDI controller data. Sometimes, I'll even use the K2 Player's software keyboard to find a percussion note mapping.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    Having never used Finale, I'm always trying to understand better how notation users have to work.
    Trust me, Randy, when I say that notation users are just as respectful and curious to learn how someone, like yourself, works exclusively in a sequencer! It's marvelous that we can all arrive in the same place, knowing that the creative process could be dramatically different from one artist to the next.

    Ken

  8. #8

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    AND thank you, Ken, for letting us know how not to have your cymbal roll demo play constantly on a loop every time we're on this thread!

    It really is a perpetually interesting topic - the difference between working in a DAW and working in a notation program.

    Speaking as an old MIDI guy who not all that long ago was still using hardware synths exclusively, playing them with a keyboard, and recording tracks into hardware sequencers - it still seems so Odd to me that anyone could be working from the other direction - creating a notated version of music first.

    I know that Beethoven supposedly composed music while almost deaf, sitting under a tree and drawing blobs on paper---but isn't that rather out of the norm?

    When I try to picture trying to create music from a notation program, I keep thinking of approximate analogies - like making a paint-by-numbers page instead of creating a painting itself, or expecting to build a house by somehow making a blue print come to life on its own - but none of those analogies are really quite accurate.

    Essentially, speaking as a keyboardist, it's that for me the music exists first as what happens when I play an instrument. I listen to what I've done, I edit, I layer and so on. Whatever dots end up on a staff grid as the result of what I've done is at most just vaguely interesting, but not what I could start my work from.

    To use another incomplete analogy, it seems like trying to force a recipe to Be the dish I'm cooking, rather than directly making the dish itself.

    I sometimes think that it's because I'm more aurally oriented than visually - I never had a love of looking at and using notated music. I want to Hear what I'm creating -But conversely, I've seen dedicated notation users say that that they Must See what they're working on. For that to work with my relationship with music, that would be too analytical, too theoretical.

    Hear me struggling to grasp it all? I know that working with notation doesn't mean that someone is necessarily being "too" cerebral about their music, but I can say that for myself it Would be too cerebral a way of working. I need to trust my ears, close my eyes and discover if what I've done is working for me. And to arrive at that, I simply have to Play an instrument. Whatever the results are on staves - there it is, it doesn't really interest me very much.

    That's why it's especially edifying to finally understand that Finale users Do have the option of using a keyboard for input if they choose - And that they can get right in there and get into the nitty gritty of MIDI editing if they wish.

    It does a lot, knowing that, to dispel the image of notation users as latter day monks slaving away and coldly inputting notes with a mouse and somehow, miraculously, making actual music from the process.

    Hats off to the successful notation users - and thank heavens for my sake that DAWs were developed to replace the good old fashioned process of recording music as it was done for the entire 20th Century -turning a recording device on, and capturing the performance.

    So - Thanks again!

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  9. #9

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Hmm - Thanks Randy
    We dream to write and we write to dream.

    Challenge #10 Winner

  10. #10

    Re: How: Suspended Cymbal Roll

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    AND thank you, Ken, for letting us know how not to have your cymbal roll demo play constantly on a loop every time we're on this thread!


    Guilty as charged! I extend my apologies to all readers, both current and future. I just downloaded Camtasia, was hell-bent on using it, and learning that a fellow forum member had a Finale question (the cymbal roll) which, for once, I felt I could do a credible job of offering a solution of merit, was too much for me to pass up -- even if I learned how to step on the Camtasia gas pedal without learning how to step on the brakes! Although not the most elegant fix, I hope everyone noticed that I did preface the clip with advance warning:
    P.S. - If the following embedded clip keeps repeating, right-click the embedded clip and deselect the loop option.
    Anyway, at least we'll know that folks who make it this far are truly interested in the topics!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    I know that Beethoven supposedly composed music while almost deaf, sitting under a tree and drawing blobs on paper---but isn't that rather out of the norm?
    I'd agree that being a deaf composer is likely to be out of the norm in the realm of all composers, but I'm not sure that it's intuitive that composers who write their music on paper while sitting under a tree is any more out of the norm than that of a composer who composes music on the train going to work, or on a plane, or even a ship at sea (as I'll be doing next week -- so if I'm less visible on the forum, that's, in part, why). "Where/how does one compose music?" sounds like a good question to pose to the Community in the General Discussion forum, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    Essentially, speaking as a keyboardist, it's that for me the music exists first as what happens when I play an instrument.
    Ah, I envy your ability to put multiple fingers down on the keyboard concurrently and realize polyphonic music on the fly! As a player of a monophonic instrument (French horn), I don't have the skill of efficiently multitasking at the keyboard in real-time. I'm more of a hunt and peck keyboardist -- when I use it. So you see, writing down the notes is all I've got when it comes to efficiently transcribing the sounds in my head. Perhaps that explains the difference in our modes of working.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    I want to Hear what I'm creating -But conversely, I've seen dedicated notation users say that that they Must See what they're working on.
    I want hear what I'm creating as well. That's the role of the sample libraries. I suppose I trade off getting the notes down first and then pressing the "play" button before I hear any sound but I listen every few measures and even use the Finale "scrub" playback to listen to individual chordal progressions. I already hear the sound I want before I write the notes down; entering the notes in Finale allows me to reproduce what I hear using an independent mechanism which can replicate the sound faithfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    Hear me struggling to grasp it all? I know that working with notation doesn't mean that someone is necessarily being "too" cerebral about their music, but I can say that for myself it Would be too cerebral a way of working. I need to trust my ears, close my eyes and discover if what I've done is working for me. And to arrive at that, I simply have to Play an instrument. Whatever the results are on staves - there it is, it doesn't really interest me very much.
    I hear you. When I use notation, it becomes a proxy for the instrument I want to speak. Consider the analogy of a composer using notation to that of a computer programmer who must write lines of code before seeing the instructions executed. Because I've been trained in notation, it comes more naturally to me than playing the keyboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    That's why it's especially edifying to finally understand that Finale users Do have the option of using a keyboard for input if they choose - And that they can get right in there and get into the nitty gritty of MIDI editing if they wish.
    All true, but some aspects of notation products are not as elegantly implemented as they are with a sequencer.

    The notion of exclusively using a MIDI keyboard for input is, for some, artificially restrictive. For example, one can use the built-in Finale "MicNotator" input mode so one can play a real instrument and Finale will transcribe what it hears!
    http://www.finalemusic.com/Finale/fe...icnotator.aspx

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    It does a lot, knowing that, to dispel the image of notation users as latter day monks slaving away and coldly inputting notes with a mouse and somehow, miraculously, making actual music from the process.
    Ah well, then my job is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    Hats off to the successful notation users - and thank heavens for my sake that DAWs were developed to replace the good old fashioned process of recording music as it was done for the entire 20th Century -turning a recording device on, and capturing the performance.

    So - Thanks again!
    And thank YOU, Randy, for so clearly articulating the how you compose and helping me understand how others create!

    It is clear to me, now, that keyboard skills play a huge determinant in how one choses their creation process and the creation tools which best fit their individual needs.

    I'm convinced that we'll see a convergence of sequencer and notation functionality and when that happens, we'll have the best of both worlds!

    Regards,

    Ken
    (RustyCrook)

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