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Topic: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

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  1. #1

    Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    To do something else and learn from the "masters".... I copied that second part of the 5th symphony of Schubert. I made a mistake in the title of this thread..... not the part 3 but part 2.

    Instruments
    Flute
    2 Oboes
    2 Bassoons
    2 Horns Eb (of course I used the French horns, but the score is as if Eb)
    Violins I
    Violins II
    Violas
    Celli
    Contrabasses

    Notation Program
    Overture 4.0 for Windows XP, with KP2 player

    Sequencer
    Sonar 5 Prod.

    Reverbs, etc.
    Voxengo Overtone Equalizer
    Sonitus Equalizer
    - both used for violins and violas
    SIR convolution, one for every instrument group (meaning 8 occurences)
    Impulsfile: Lexicon - PCM90Halls - ORCH-medium hall (all with diff. settings)

    Example
    As an example I used the recording of the Wiener Philharmoniker, with Ricardo Mutti, recording almost 20 years old.

    My input
    I used a different "sound balance" to get all the instruments play their specific role. Schubert didn't write this symphony as a string ensemble with winds, but was certainly aware of the role of flutes, oboes, etc. otherwise he wouldn't have written those parts.

    Some recordings are just string ensembles with accompaniment of those wind instruments. Ricardo Muti starts this symphony (the first few measures) as if the strings are muted. I didn't, because it wasn't in the score.

    Andante con moto from the 5th Symphony of F. Schubert
    The score in pdf format

    Hope you enjoy this. Next time I'll try to use that video-gadget to play along the score, but for now.... the old fashioned way.

    Raymond

  2. #2

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Nice job, Mr. Ray. You excelled in rendering this beautiful Schubert music. This is my favorite part of this entire symphony and you really did it justice.

    Dank u, Mister, for your good work.

    Regards,

    Larry
    Larry G. Alexander
    www.alexandermusic.com

  3. #3
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    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Raymond,

    Well done, such a serious work by Schubert and a great effort on your part to produce this fine result. Perhaps a bit more reverb to give it the sound of a larger space. But it is an excellent result as it is. Thanks for sharing it with the forum.

    Gary

    www.garybricault.com

  4. #4

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Gary

    Beautiful work.

    I have seen some of the video score gadgets play and they never seem to work well or they have horrible sounds.

    This piece does not

    Well Done on all this work

    Ron

  5. #5

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Raymond:

    A lovely work and a great rendering. I can see now
    how fruitful it is to try to emulate a real orchestra.
    So much can be learned and it really sharpens your
    "sampling" chops.

    Enjoyed listening to this work. And, I really appreciate
    all the work you did to bring it to us.

    Thank you, Raymond

    Jack
    Jack Cannon--MacBook Pro (2015, 13") GPO4/5, JABB3, Auth. STEINWAY, YAMAHA CFX, Gofriller CELLO, Stradivari VIOLIN, COMB2, WORLD, HARPS, PIPE ORGANS, FINALE 2014.5, Mac Pro 2.66 GHz CPU, 8 GB RAM, DP 9.5, MOTU Traveler, MOTU Micro Express, MacBook Pro (2012, 13") 2.2 Ghz CPU, 8 GB RAM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member rpearl's Avatar
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    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Such a wonderful piece - Mozart's 42nd! My sense, whenever I hear it, is that the winds are little more prominent, although the whole sound picture is quite blended.

    At first I thought, too, that more reverb was needed; but as it progressed, I wasn't so sure. I think you found a good balance.

    The only thing I could add would be to use more cresc/dim on long help notes in the strings - a daunting amount of work, though.

    Really enjoyed this. I hope you learned as much; the pleasure was all ours!
    Ron Pearl

    Website:

    ronaldmpearl.com

    myspace:

    http://myspace.com/rmpearl

  7. #7

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 2 Andante con moto

    Larry, Gary, Ron, Jack and Ron Pearl... thank you for your kind words.
    It is indeed a beautiful piece - really Mozart like. The moment I heard this again my thoughts were to get that piece done with GPO.

    Reverbs:Why did I choose the reverb as it is? The whole setting is of a chamber orchestra, and those concerts always take place in a smaller room with lesser reverb. That's also the reason why I took that specific impuls file.

    Besides that, we all must be warned about things we get used to on our broadcast machines, like those Hollywood-reverbs, one hears every day. Even some newly recorded CD's have this fault. It is as if the mastering engineers are trying to transform a good stereo into that movie-setup 5.1/6.1/7.1 or whatever.

    The prominent winds is on purpose, as I wrote in the original message. Having analized this piece I found some repeating themes and motivs all over the place and not only at the string section. Looking good, this piece is just a question and answer story, with variations.

    Adding a bit more cresc/dim and/or adding a bit more tempo changes is a matter of discussion.

    For the tempo changes, I learned in the past that too many can break a piece. My piano teacher told me, that when a drastic tempo change had to be there, the composer would have indicated!! Personally I don't like those "rubato-filled" pieces of music. It gives too much "pathos" to divertimenti like pieces (as this is).

    Adding a bit more cresc/dim to longer string notes? Yes, you are right. I could have added some more. I can put down a lot of words in favor or against this. It comes down to a matter of taste. But it is worthwhile looking into it. I also noticed (only after the 200-th listening) that some legato phrases aren't played legato after all (to say that the notes don't overlap and that the attacks are noticeable). Will look into this also.

    Finally, I hope I served your ears well, in this world full of noise. Now that Stockhausen died, we all go back to tonality again, aren't we?

    Raymond

  8. #8

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Hello, Raymond

    I am just thrilled with your rendition of this Schubert. Surely you have to pleased? Like everyone, you've gone through your various technical challenges, and there will always be more ahead, but all that you brought to this project is something to be proud of.

    I am SO glad to read what you said so very well about the over-use of reverb in too much of what is heard nowadays. You're right to blame it on Hollywood and its current love for GIGAntic sounding scores. It certainly wasn't always the case in film scores - Listen to things from not all that long ago, and the sound was natural and much more intimate.

    You may recall that being weary of home recordings which are just drenched in reverb is a pet peeve of mine. Too often it can sound like we're listening from Outside the venue.

    Your meticulous and thorough use of impulse responses appropriate for a chamber orchestra really paid off. I could instantly hear the crystal clear medium sized hall your orchestra is playing in and I think it sounds great.

    I noticed your recent threads in one of the tech boards here, about Overture not properly translating some MIDI controllers when you export the resulting MIDI file. I think you were given something to fix that now?--Because you're right, the one noticeable flaw in this recording is that the strings are often without any Garritan Legato and so they're chugging instead of playing smoothly.

    It took me over a year to translate my "Dorian" score so it worked in GPO, because of the need to not only learn how to use the library but because I needed to hand insert thousands of cc64 events to make the strings right - along with lengthening many of the notes which fell short of over-lapping. I tried various plugins that were supposed to do translation to GPO automatically - none did what I wanted. Some people use a foot pedal to fix up their cc64 needs - that never comes out quite accurately enough for me. Of course I record cc1 live with a wheel, but many controllers still need to be inserted or at least highly edited in the Piano Roll View.

    So for you if it's still a matter of needing to do hand editing - of course it would be worth it. But I think your Overture problem has been fixed now, so you could do another edit on this Schubert piece?

    Thanks for the scrumptious music - so nice.

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  9. #9

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    I noticed your recent threads in one of the tech boards here, about Overture not properly translating some MIDI controllers when you export the resulting MIDI file. I think you were given something to fix that now?--Because you're right, the one noticeable flaw in this recording is that the strings are often without any Garritan Legato and so they're chugging instead of playing smoothly.
    Yes and no. The tech things were solved but not properly. I recently updated Overture with a new service pack and somehow things got mixed up, or at least are a bit different than the older version. In the first version when putting a legato slur the notes DID overlap, together with CC#64's at the right place. Now it doesn't overlap. I looked into the steering-XML file and found out that the author used for legato 105% of the standard note value of 90%. That gives me only 94.5 % length while I wanted 105% or so. He should have put there 112%, which gives me just enough overlapping (112% of 90% = 100.8).


    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser-
    So for you if it's still a matter of needing to do hand editing - of course it would be worth it. But I think your Overture problem has been fixed now, so you could do another edit on this Schubert piece?
    I will edit this accordingly, together with a bit more cresc/diminuendo on longer string notes...... All other things, but at some passage for the oboe, I leave untouched.

  10. #10

    Re: Schubert - Symphony nr.5 - part 3 Andante con moto

    Hi, Raymond

    Well how frustrating that the programming wasn't done right in what you got for Overture.

    You could try the "Length" tool in Sonar. That changes the length of selected notes for whatever length you want.

    But I've never trusted that sort of thing to automation--Scrutinizing Legato passages in the Piano Roll View and hand lengthening notes that need to be altered is all I ever do.

    I use the Length tool for shortening passages that need to be more brisk than how I played them, so they're shorter than the full notated value - an under-used technique I think, by the way. Notated durations are literal and--not so musical.

    Best of luck with it all!

    Randy B.

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