• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 16 123411 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 157

Topic: I'll give up ....

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    I'll give up ....

    I'll give up .... for a change I spent my day trying to get some decent sound from a partial copied symphonic piece (César Franck, symphonie en ré mineur). Today was my experimental day.

    I'll give up using any sound "enhancing" plugs. It is strange in this world. We can go to Mars (to shake hands with that little guy, they recently discovered on one of the photos). We can build bridges like the Millau viaduct, the world famous dutch high-sea protection, huge buildings in Dubai and an artificial airport island near Hong Kong..... why can't we build a plug in really user friendly WITHOUT THE NEED TO LEARN AND MEMORIZE ABOUT SLOPES, ATTACKS, PRE- and AFTER DELAYS, WET and DRY, ENVELOPES, SMOKE SCREENS, VAPOR WARE, BIONIC-, ISOTONIC sample libs ......

    I downloaded and installed Voxengo Pristine Space and immediately got a heart attack after installation. I am NOT a mastering engineer and don't want to be one (it is too late now, I am in my sixties and time flies by at ridiculous speed). Why can't we all make some plugins where the programmer uses normal language. Why can't we make programs that don't stop at unexpected moments (as Overture does almost every 6 measures), as KP2 where using a convolution reverb is buggy (even the word convolution makes me sick).

    I know of the characteristics of some halls, why not applying them automatically, giving the brass that sonore sound (lower freqs travel longer, higher freqs faster but die out premature, etc.) Even this is obsolete. It must all be set automatically!!!

    Equalizers, Compressors, Enhancers, Stereo fields settings, Exciters, Calibrators, Reverberation, .... I dream about them, having nightmares. And after all study and experimenting I did in the past, the resulting burned CD doesn't sound as a masterpiece at all....

    If I had several millions to spend, I would setup a company to make these things. Now I have to find my way around all knobs, sliders, meters, warning lights of a Boeing 747 ....... trying not to crash.

    So I'll give up...

    Raymond

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    South of the Ohio River
    Posts
    555

    Re: I'll give up ....

    Couldn't agree with you more, Raymond. There comes a time when all we want to really do is make music and we shouldn't have to become computer engineers in order to do that. And, that's why I post very little of what I do publicly. I don't feel competent to wade through all of what one has to do these days to "shape" the sound "properly."

    Let me know when you get your company going. I may be your first customer.
    Jerry
    Dayton, Kentucky
    Personally, I'm waiting for caller IQ.

  3. #3

    Post Re: I'll give up ....

    I feel your pain, Raymond. Pristine Space is a bit of a monster, so is Altiverb the program that I use. In Altiverb the presets are quite useable, however tweaking without understanding a great deal soon leads to exactly where you don't want to go.

    Don't give up, rather ask questions. I have found with Altiverb that I over thought the process. Simple changes like pre-delay and tail tweaks do 90% of what I am looking for.

    Good luck!

    -Kevin
    We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams …
    24" 2.4 Ghz iMac, OSX 10.4.10, MOTU 828 MKII, 2 Glyph 250 Gig external drives, Logic 9, Finale 2008 GPO, JABB, Strad, Gro, Reason 4, EWQL Storm Drum, Adrenaline, Symphonic Choirs, SO Gold,All Arturia Synths, Many NI Synths, Spectrasonics Synths, KH Strings, VEPro on a Windows 7 4x 2.8 Ghz 12 gig of RAM

  4. #4

    Lightbulb Re: I'll give up ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybee
    Couldn't agree with you more, Raymond. There comes a time when all we want to really do is make music and we shouldn't have to become computer engineers in order to do that. And, that's why I post very little of what I do publicly. I don't feel competent to wade through all of what one has to do these days to "shape" the sound "properly."
    Hmmm..... Being a musician today means exactly what it did 100 years ago. Nothing stops us from just picking up an instrument and playing. However, if we want to be able to record, mix and master our music then we have to learn the skill sets for that. I don't think companies have to apologize that the technology is complicated. They provide presets to get us going and then it is up to us to learn the software if we want to customize it. Just like we would have to take the time to learn how to play the trumpet if we want to be the next Maynard Ferguson.

    What I find is that I need to stop trying to learn *everything* and focus on what I *need*. I am guilty of purchasing much more than I can ever learn or use. The upside is I get to choose what I want to spend my time with and learn it well.

    -Kevin
    We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams …
    24" 2.4 Ghz iMac, OSX 10.4.10, MOTU 828 MKII, 2 Glyph 250 Gig external drives, Logic 9, Finale 2008 GPO, JABB, Strad, Gro, Reason 4, EWQL Storm Drum, Adrenaline, Symphonic Choirs, SO Gold,All Arturia Synths, Many NI Synths, Spectrasonics Synths, KH Strings, VEPro on a Windows 7 4x 2.8 Ghz 12 gig of RAM

  5. #5

    Re: I'll give up ....

    You don't expect to be able to play a musical instrument without practice, you don't learn to drive without practice, you can't do anything worthwhile without practice, why not learn how to use reverb etc, practice your art or go back to acoustics

  6. #6

    Lightbulb Re: I'll give up ....

    I gave it a bit of thought and came up with a pair of suggestions that could at least reduce the amount of tweaking options (and thus the overwhelming interface) without reducing quality. The first is ProVerb, it is included with Digital Performer 6 but may be available seperately. It uses convolution reverb and the interface is much easier to grasp for tweaking than Pristine Space. The second is SIR2 http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir2.html . Again, the interface is lean and the quality is high.

    Hope this helps!

    -Kevin
    We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams …
    24" 2.4 Ghz iMac, OSX 10.4.10, MOTU 828 MKII, 2 Glyph 250 Gig external drives, Logic 9, Finale 2008 GPO, JABB, Strad, Gro, Reason 4, EWQL Storm Drum, Adrenaline, Symphonic Choirs, SO Gold,All Arturia Synths, Many NI Synths, Spectrasonics Synths, KH Strings, VEPro on a Windows 7 4x 2.8 Ghz 12 gig of RAM

  7. #7

    Re: I'll give up ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    I We can build bridges like the Millau viaduct, the world famous dutch high-sea protection
    Raymond
    Raymond,

    I saw a documentary on TV about all extraordinary dutch bridges and dykes built from centuries ago to nowadays. You will agree that it took a lot of plugins to realize these monsters. And you are right about time flying when we get older . So, except reverb, do you really need all those pugins for orchestral work ?

    SergeD

  8. #8

    Re: I'll give up ....

    I partly agree with your comments.

    I experimented with:

    Reverbs
    Garritan Ambience
    RayVerb (derived from the idea of Raytracing)
    ConvBoy
    SIR
    PSP stuff
    ...ending on fish.. stuff
    and several others........

    Enhancers/compressors
    Sonitus stuff that came with Sonar
    Other plugins from the Sonar package
    Dynamizer
    Izotope multiband (within Adobe Audition)

    Equalizers
    Again some plugins from the Sonar package
    10-,20-,30- band from Adobe Audition
    Voxengo Overtone
    The Sonar equalizer itself (sounds awful!!!)

    -------------------------------------------

    I'll stop here. Every plug came with some sort of a manual. Those from Sonar are the worst in explaining what they do and how. Every plugin had its own terminology. SIR says that the attack can be used as Early Reflection and so on.....

    I've read tutorials from the "Masters" of this forum, like DPDAN. I studied and tried to understand various settings, just by listening, calculating (real maths!), designed my own hall and let loose a couple of math formulas.

    Now I must conclude that all effort was just a nice passing time that not led to any satisfying result. For instance, some time ago I copied a piece of Schubert - second part from the 5th Symphony - of which I have a recording. Just an excercise to see if I coud get that same "perception" of quality. Some said I did a good job, but after having burned that piece on Cd and played it over my hi-fi stuff, it was .... nothing at all.

    Strangely enough, with my headphones and with my monitors I compared the outcome over and over again and found out that I came very close. But playing it elsewhere (living room) ruined my dreams. All spatial effects were lost, the sparkling sound of the violins disappeared, some sounds of the woodwinds were ... I can go on, but don't.

    Now I did the same with that César Franck piece and it is just crap.

    In the reply there was one sentence that stroke me. You have to learn those electronic instruments. I don't agree. These instruments must play for me and I don't have to play around to get them working. We - at least me - have trouble enough getting acquainted with the sound of the particular instruments in an orchestra (or solo), the tone balance in an orchestration, the ins- and outs of violins, breathing of all wind instruments. We - at least me - can miss those technical aspects hidden under a multitude of knobs, sliders, etc.

    To be simple thinking. When I apply 12 first violins in a space (Musikverein) and I tell the system to play those notes, it must sound as 12 first violins playing in that hall with all reverb, overtones, aggressive bow noise. It is not me to do the programming. It is up to the programmer to do his job as it should.

    I am not desperate, oh no. I just give up trying to understand it all.
    After two years of experimenting with that little result... it is pure waste of time. Time I really need for my compositions.

    I sincerely hope that Gary finally establishes some sort of standardization, developing ARIA, REAL SPACES (is this the name), etc.


    Raymond

  9. #9

    Re: I'll give up ....

    Raymond, I fully understand your frustration.
    Kevin stated it very honestly....
    Quote Originally Posted by LFO
    if we want to be able to record, mix and master our music then we have to learn the skill sets for that.
    Let me explain some of my frustration. I started recording with the high school's equipment, a Sony six channel mixer and a Sony reel to reel tape deck. After just one recording, I learned that the Shure mics were horrible, the mixer however limited in features WAS sufficient, but the reel to reel did not run long enough at high speed. While other kids my age were buying drugs and mag wheels for their cars, I was buying Altec Lansing speakers, AKG mics and a new Teac reel to reel tape deck with 10.5 inch reels, then I could record a whole concert at high speed. Yippee! I was in hog heaven.

    It did not take too long before I realized the more I had, the more I wanted. In 1974 I bought a new van and some new components for my Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers. I did sound for a barbershop show with them and powered them with my Marantz amplifier. Again, I realized I should have commercial amplifiers for my remote location work.
    In a month or so, I will provide sound for the same barbershop chorus, and I will use the same speakers I used in 1980. Yes, much better microphones and newer Crown power amplifiers, but the sound will be awesome. Sometimes less is more, I know that is an old saying, but How Sweet It Is!

    I learned most of what I know from listening to professionally recorded music of all kinds. Ironicallly "back then", everything was professionally recorded. There was no such thing as a portable recording studio, and certainly if you wanted the quality of the big boys, you had to have fantastic equipment.

    I have no musical training of any sort except all the music I have heard through years. I did not have to have any musical knowledge of scores, 1/4 notes, staves, valves, or reeds, all I needed was common sense. If I was in a situation where I was recording a concert, and I had not ever recorded "that" instrument before, I simply listened to the player up close during rehearsal, and then decided where the mics should be placed to pick up good sound. This was a great way to learn about instruments, but also, I learned that I would not pick up much of the room's ambience (reverb) with the mics so close. Again common sense told me that if I did not have some kind of fake reverb to add to the recording later, the recording would not sound very live. Since much of the time, I was also micing the instrument for sound reinforcement, I learned I had to have the mics as close as possible to eliminate picking up other instruments, and even the sound of the instruments being reinforced through my Altec speakers.

    Getting back to all these knobs and switches and buttons OH NO!

    Almost every plugin that is of good caliber, has knobs with a name next to each one, indicating what each knob does. Unfortunately, there are too many plugins that are marketed towards people who think they have to have all these "things" to get a great mix.

    I don't want to turn this good topic into a competition, there are enough of those in the world. I want to offer my help in discussing anything that anyone wants to talk about pertaining to audio. I still learn stuff every day, and I mean every day.

    Raymond, I would like for you to take a screenshot of one of the plugins that you are talking about, post it here and let's discuss each knob and what it does. It is unreasonble to expect an equalizer to know which frequency is bothersome, and then smart enough to know just how bothersome that frequency is. Our ears will have already told us that.

    It does not matter what DAW we use, or whether we use a Mac or a PC, they are both easlily capable of producing professional sounding results. What matters is how well we construct our music in the first place.
    When sample libraries are recorded... (most), they are recorded with extremely expensive microphones and recording processing equipment. This gear is professionally chosen so that the instrument is recorded in prestine quality. It should not require the use of an equalizer by the user in order to achieve pleasant sound. Yes, Garritan libraries (like most) do require some amount of reverb processing in order to sound like they are in an actual acoustic environment.

    I would like to offer my help. I will answer any questions that I can. If I don't know the answer I will either tell you or I will find out.

    Let's do this it will be fun.

    Dan

  10. #10

    Re: I'll give up ....

    Raymond,

    here is a link where you can download an interesting "mastering guide".

    It is from one developer, but if you read it you can learn very fast and easy some things about the mastering.

    http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/guides.html

    Hope this helps a little bit.

    Best,

    Gunther
    "Music is the shorthand of emotion." Leo Tolstoy

    Listen to me, tuning my triangle http://www.box.net/shared/ae822u6r3i

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •