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Topic: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

  1. #1

    Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    Ok I have a big problem in Sibelius. For some reason my 2nd violins have been arranged ABOVE the 1st violins and there is seemingly NO way too rearrange instrument tracks. I\'ve read all the help on this topic in the manual and there simply does not seem to be an option to rearrange the staffs.

    This is totally unacceptable! The way my score looks now is (skipping ww+brass):


    So any help from a Sibelius wiz would be greatly appreciated! it\'s a pretty urgent matter because of a deadline by tonight!

    Thanks in advance,

  2. #2

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!


    you don\'t say which version of Sib you are using.. anyhow, the following should work with all of them: make sure you have a backup copy, just in case, then triple-click on your violin II staff, hit ctrl+c to copy (or ctrl+x to cut).

    Add a new instrument (hit \"I\" and then create a new Violin II staff), it will appear in the correct position in the score as long as the \"Create in default order\" checkbox is set. Now triple-click on the new staff, hit ctrl+v and you are done. If needed you can now delete the wrongly positioned staff (triple-click + delete).

    How did you get in that situation anyhow? It\'s not easy with Sibelius to get staves to \"jump over\" other staves (in fact, it should not even be possible).

    Good luck..


    PS: if you haven\'t already, make sure to check out Sibelius 2.1 which should be available very soon (I am using a beta version), it is quite an amazing piece of software. In fact, I would go as far as calling it the most elegant, most beautiful software product I\'ve ever used.

    Andrea G. Pessino (not female, just Italian)
    Blizzard Entertainment


  3. #3

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    Wow thanks a lot Andrea, you saved my day! I\'m trying it now!

    I\'m using version 2.0. I\'m a former Finale user but all the exciting hype around Sibelius had me convert I will definitely check out 2.1 when it is out. I have no idea how I got into this state, but now that you provided me with a solution, I\'m happy!
    I still tend to get a little annoyed at this piece of software.

    Like now a new problem surfaced. I\'m trying to write out dynamic markings but I find myself copying and pasting a lot.

    Say I want all the instruments to play PP somewhere, surely there has to be a fast way to insert PP on all staffs with one simple function? Do you know a shortcut?

    Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!


  4. #4

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!


    there are, indeed, much faster ways.. do a quick search in your manual for \"Multicopy,\" one of the coolest things new in Sibelius version 2.

    To get a taste try this: enter a dynamic (say, pp) or even a set of dynamics (pp, then hairpin, then ff). Select them and hit ctrl+c to copy (either by \"rubber banding\" or ctrl+click). Do not select the music in the measure, just the dynamics. Now, select as many staves as you like, even regions in them, and even discontinuous selections by using ctrl+clicks. Hit ctrl+v, and there you go, dynamics copied and aligned to all selected staves.. I also suggest you take a look at the search and selection filters, which allow you to do very quick changes to your selections and then operate on the results at once (there are some bugs related to articulations in version 2.0, all of these were fixed in version 2.1).

    There is a lot more than you can do with multicopy, but that\'s the general idea. As rule, with Sibelius there are few ways of doing things, as opposed to a multitude of methods to achieve the same goal as in other programs, but these fundamental ideas are quite flexible and can be combined into very powerful procedures.

    I have used Sibelius non stop since the day it was introduced on Windows (back in 1998) and I love it with all my heart. Version 2, in particular, was like a dream come true. Sibelius is the only program I\'ve ever used that has become completely second nature to me, when using it I don\'t think about anything else except the music itself.. the program and its intricacies completely disappear into my subconscious, as if I were simply writing with pencil and paper (except, of course, that I am orders of magnitude more productive and I don\'t have to pay a copyist when I am done). If you are an engraver there might be some programs out there that allow you much more control over your output (even tho\' Sibelius is getting pretty darn close..) but if you are a composer, well, then there is simply no comparison.

    My humble opinion, of course. I hope everything works out for you, and let me know if you have any other problems..


    [This message has been edited by apessino (edited 04-16-2002).]

  5. #5

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    Andrea! Great to know that you use this forum, man. I\'m a classical composer in California and we\'re having a bit of a discussion about Sibelius right now in THIS forum over in the Software Issues section. (And talking about your articles in Siblings, I might add!)

    Well dang, I only have about 97 questions for you, but dont worry I wont ask them YET. I\'m willing to experiment - and have only had the full Sibelius 2 for like half a day! I was so excited to see how great the Sibelius2 DEMO worked with my GS that I went right out and bought it - today. What a joy for classical musicians.

    Its working fine with GigaStudio for me - absolute luck really given the memory problems that some other folks are apparently having. So I\'m really thrilled and going to be trying many things with it now that I have the basics going. But as I get beyond the basics I hope you wont mind a few more questions.

    Good music to you (and thanks Thomas_J for your help when I was just getting started with GS - so youre using GS and Sibelius too eh?), LifeForce (LifeForceExplorer@yahoo.com)

  6. #6

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    Hello there, lifeforce!

    I generally only read the \"sample libraries\" discussion (limited time, plus here\'s where the action is most of the time.. ), so I missed the other thread, sorry! I am glad Sib2 is working fine for you with GigaStudio. Personally, I\'ve always used dedicated machines for Giga, and I have never had any problems controlling them from Sibelius. In any case, version 2.1 fixes those annoying Windows-resource issues, so things will be happy for everyone soon.

    I have come a long way since I wrote those articles for Siblings (which was actually in the summer of 2000, I was just starting with Giga then), and I am thrilled by the results I have been able to get since Sibelius 2 was introduced. Two things:

    1) I have completely given up on trying to use Sibelius as a sequencer. There is just no possible way to get a sketch out of Sibelius that even comes close to what one can do by playing the parts in. Once this is understood..
    2) ..and in spite of it: I _still_ want to get the best possible playback out of Sib, simply because it is such a wonderful compositional tool and because it makes me very happy to hit P and hear my music come to life as I am writing it!

    My main sequencing rig is centered around a P4 2GHz DAW running Nuendo and Cubase, with lots of Giga PCs, effects, digital mixers and everything else. I only sequence directly when I need to make \"production\" pieces (which is a rare occurrence these days, seeing that we are in the final phases of development for WarCraft III and my programming duties take up about 20 hrs. a day). Ordinarily, most of my day is spent writing the games, and my nights using Sibelius to write music for the concert hall (hopefully.. ) which, besides games, is what I am most interested in.

    For my work with Sibelius I use two playback environments:

    a) at my home studio I use Sibelius on the P4, with Nuendo, to drive three dedicated Giga PCs. Each of the Giga machines is assigned a task in the playback of the score, and each one loads a GigaStudio performance associated with a particular piece. Most of the time my smallest machine (a P3 600) is dedicated to Woodwinds, and I load all of the \"lite\" programs in the Dan Dean Solo WW. They work _extremely_ well with Sibelius because they are very uniformly and beautifully played.

    A second machine is dedicated exclusively to strings (my highest performance Giga station, a 1.5GHz Athlon with 2Gb of memory and a humongous RAID drive). I use a selection of programs from GOS, some articulations from Miroslav ensembles and a few others.

    The third machine (a 1GHz P3 with a two fast SCSI drives) is dedicated to brass, percussion and the occasional extra instrument. I use Dan Dean Solo Brass, again the best for use with Sib, some Quantum Leap and some Advanced Orchestra. For piano and harp I use my old Kurzweil K2500RS.

    Each machine has a Hammerfall sound card in it, and I send out two lightpipes from each into the DAW where I run Sibelius and Nuendo concurrently. Here I route all of the audio tracks and then send them back out to effects, plugins, etc. You get the idea..

    b) my other Sibelius environment is much simpler: for playback I use a Korg Karma, which is surprisingly good and Sibelius supports it directly using the Triton sound set, an EMU Virtuoso 2000 with the Advanced Orchestra card in it and a JV2080 with the two orchestral cards, the world card and the vocal card in it (driving any of the JV modules from Sibelius is a royal pain in the behind, you have to go through gigantic hoops to make it work, but some of the sounds are excellent). All of the above goes into a Yamaha O1v mixer, then out to a bunch of effects, to a Delta 66 in the computer and also to my trusty Alesis ML9600 masterlink.

    Version 2 of Sibelius made it an order of magnitude easier to drive external equipment, especially because to use Sib effectively you end up writing a lot of explicit MIDI commands (~ commands) in the score. With version 2 text management and text style functionality have been greatly improved, and it is now very easy to search/filter and otherwise manipulate commands in the score without interfering with the music itself. Sib version 2.0 also has an improved \"playback options\" dialog which allows you to disable many automatic MIDI behaviors (if, for example, you don\'t want Sibelius to send program changes to Giga on its own). Version 2.1 also adds the ability to send Program Change messages immediately when they appear in the score (ordinarily Sibelius attempts to send program change messages as late as possible, why this is the case is complicated to explain..) which makes controlling certain devices, such as the aforementioned JV series, much easier to do.

    Anyhow, whatever questions you might have do not hesitate to ask, I hope to be able to answer them! I doubt that many people here would be interested, tho\', so maybe we should take this discussion to e-mail.

    Oh, and.. good music to you too!


  7. #7

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    Thank you ever so much! I got all my problems sorted out, printed out the score and voila!

    Can\'t thank you enough!!!

    Sibelius 2.1 sounds exciting!


  8. #8

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    \"Version 2 of Sibelius made it an order of magnitude easier to drive external equipment, especially because to use Sib effectively you end up writing a lot of explicit MIDI commands (~ commands) in the score.\"

    This is actually one of the biggest reasons that I consider Finale to be much better for working with GigaStudio than Sibelius. For people like ThomasJ who use a dedicated sequencing program for making the actual recordings, Sibelius makes a decent notation program to work along with it. But for those of us who want to make the notation program be as much like a sequencer as possible, I find that Finale is by far the best choice.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Nova Scotia, Canada

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    I guess I may be missing something, but I\'ve been using Sibelius as a sequencer for over two years now so I\'m not sure where it fails in this regard. I also use it to drive dedicated pc\'s for Dan Dean woods, Vitous and Garritan strings, etc. and find that the sheer elegance of inputting notes on virtual parchment and immediately evoking whatever articulation you wish is the ultimate way to compose music. I personally find all the silly looking gizmos and faders and controller-drawing in dedicated sequencers a distraction once you\'re used to a Sibelius only environment. It seems the people most uninterested in developing Sibelius as a sequencer are the people at Sibelius, who seem to be unaware of the potential of developing the ultimate composition program and remain focused only on notation for some peculiar reason. However, once you setup your own communication language between Sibelius and GigaStudio and go through all the aggravation, you are empowered with the most positive working environment a classical musician can ever hope for.

    Andrea, where do you feel the dedicated sequencers excel over Sibelius, once you learn all the various controller messages and so on? Because I\'m working on mainly classical pieces, as well as scanning in various symphonies, etc, I may not need things like syncing to video, etc, and may be overlooking some other factors, but nothing has become too apparent to me yet. I am, however, always interested in practical user comments on the Giga-Sibelius interface.

    Cheers, Don

  10. #10

    Re: Urgent help wanted from Sibelius Wiz!

    Andrea, where do you feel the dedicated sequencers excel over Sibelius, once you learn all the various controller messages and so on?

    I can think of at least a few technical issues with Sibelius (inability to anticipate or delay MIDI events, inability to specify a MIDI context, such as device/channel, for each staff from within the score, etc.) but these are definitely solvable, and not show stoppers.

    The REAL problem, in my opinion, and the only reason why Sibelius cannot compete with a sequencer for playback is that I am not playing the parts in! Try playing back a phrase in Sibelius, then try the same thing by performing it yourself.. even better, try comparing an actual orchestral performance to the Sibelius interpretation of its score. Regardless of how good/bad it \"sounds\" the problem is how it is phrased and timed, IMHO. A sequencer gives you the tools to play in each or any part, as needed.

    As I said, I also love the immediacy and the feel of composing with Sibelius and a solid rack of sample playback, I just don\'t think that the results one can expect from such a setup can go beyond a \"reasonable sketch.\"

    All the best,


    [This message has been edited by apessino (edited 04-18-2002).]

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