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Topic: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

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  1. #1
    Senior Member 4209fr's Avatar
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    Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Hi, ya'll -
    Well, I've been pretty busy. I am still waiting an ANY reply from my several contacts in the Houston music community for some help with my primary piece of music that I have been working on for almost a year. It has been over a month, now, since I asked for leads on someone to help me.

    So I finished up my transcription of the 20 Gabrieli Canzona e Sonate. They are not in 'finished' form, but everything has been cleaned up and proper spacing made between notes, etc. I did them in the original instrumentation, but what I like about these pieces is that they offer tremendous variability in what can be used. The instrumentation varies from 5 to 22 (5 choirs), plus each has an organ accompaniment. I haven't posted any of the newer ones, since I think that everyone is getting their "fill" of Gabrieli, since Gary B. is supplying us with his sax arrangements, and, besides myself, I think I remember another one in the last couple of months. (BTW, none of the pieces that I have done are ones that Gary has posted).

    So I am working on things that I figured I wouldn't get around to for at least 6 months. A few days ago I 'finished' an arrangement of the Adagio from Bach's Toccata, Adagio and Fugue (BWV 564). With completion of the MIDI files for these pieces, I have been learning some of the intricacies of the notation program that I recently got (NOT Finale - what a disastrous time I had with the trial version of its "lite", Allegro. I am using the Notation Composer. I think it has a couple of additional features over Allegro that I like, and, it is extremely intuitive. I did things in 2 minutes with Composer that I spent 2 hours (most of it in the Manual) with Allegro with nothing to show for the time spent. So I am learning how to make nice printouts of the score and parts with Composer. But every time that I print or adjust formatting, I am learning something new. So I am still very low on the learning curve with it - and this translates to spending a lot of time with little to show except my burgeoning brain (with all of my "new-found" capability) and having to do things over a dozen times. OK, off my soapbox.

    Here are the two versions:
    Orchesta:
    http://www.box.net/shared/6zdxr9uw48

    Band (transposed from C Major or Bb Major):
    http://www.box.net/shared/2weca62gw8

    If you care to vote for a 'more favored', that would be nice. Plus, as always, I relish your critical comments (and, especially, suggestions on how to do things better).

    You might notice that the oboe has a little difficulty with the trills (which are Baroque trills - the inverse of modern trills, in case you thought that I messed up). I have noticed this with the oboe from many past pieces (with GPO, and, now, with CMB). My construction of trills in these pieces are nearly exactly the same, so that is not the problem since the trills by the other instruments sound pretty good. So I don't know what is up with the oboe's inability to play them cleanly.

    Frank
    Frank Newman - Houston, Texas, USA, Earth, Milky Way (for our 'extended' viewership)
    Vista Ult SP2, i7 chipset, 12Gb, 500Gb (int) + 1 & 1.5Tb ext., E-MU 1820, Sonar 8.5PE, VSampler, CME UF5, AcousModules (for 3D playback), GPO/JBB/CMB

  2. #2

    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Hey Frank,

    Well, I preferred the Orchestral version myself. As far as giving you "tips" on how to make this sound better - not sure if I qualify b/c I use GOS than GPO. However, I think the rendering and your virtual conducting sound very good! I would suggest adding a bit more re-verb - just a bit.

    I respect your diligence and hard work to bring this to life for us using GPO.
    Thank you.

    Michael
    "...Wiktor's a Jekyll-Hyde personality..." - Lycos Music
    http://www.miserymadebeautiful.com

  3. #3

    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    I only comment on the trills. When I use a trill, I always shorten the length of the sample, with CC#21. Don't know which sequencer you are using, but maybe this is a useful tip.

  4. #4

    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Definitely, to me, the orchestral version is much more
    vibrant.

    The rendering in the first three minutes or so of this is
    just fabulous, Frank. I'm not familiar with Notation Composer
    -- perhaps I will have a look at it -- but it certainly seems
    to be doing a wonderful job in your able hands!

    My best,


    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .

  5. #5
    Senior Member 4209fr's Avatar
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    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Thanx for the comments.

    Michael -
    I'm not that familiar with GOS. I guess that it probably has a few more adjustments (like for the CMB and JBB instruments) than the GPO. I'm betting that Randy B. will think that the reverb is slightly too wet. So if I get disagreement , then it must be close.

    Raymond -
    I gave the cc21 a try with the longest trill. I'm not sure that I heard much difference between the Values of 1, 6, 12, 32, 64, 90 and 127, even when trying 1 and 127 after one another. I kind of feel like I was hoping for a significant difference, and, therefore, I think that I heard a difference. But it wasn't so "breath-taking" that I think that I will use it. Thanx for the suggestion. At least I can say that I tried. It is always possible that I didn't do something correctly, and, if I were to do it correctly, the results would be "breath-taking". BTW, I use Sonar 5 PE for my MIDI work.

    David -
    Everything that I place on the Forum is done with Sonar in MIDI form. When I get it to 'reasonable' shape, I burn an MP3.
    I tried the Allegro and Composer (trial versions) in the eventuality that I may need to make a nice score and/or parts for some of my stuff. I haven't even tried the Playback feature. I rather imagine that most sequencers have less than adequate printing capabilities (Sonar's fits this description - it's OK for looking at from a distance, but certainly nothing I would give to anyone). By the same token, those with notation programs have less than adequate playback capabilities (in comparison with good sequencers). So it seems that you need a good sequencer to work with MIDI files and audio mixing, etc., and you need a good notation program to give good printouts of parts and scores. If you want a nice, VERY easy to use (at least compared to Finale's Allegro, which their sales people say it works exactly the same way as Finale), give Notation's Composer a try. I have been working with it for about 2 weeks total (I didn't do anything with it for a week or so, and I was doing other things with Sonar, not just finding out how to use Composer), and I have made 3 or 4 short scores, and a couple of longer scores (full orchestra or band, with some solo passages, so some of the score is collapsed to just a few parts that are playing) that is about 30 pages. I've also printed a couple of Parts just to make sure that I can do it and that it looks 'professional'. In a fairly short time, I am adjusting measure sizes, moving measure from one system to another, adding dynamics, slurs, tempo marking, copyright statement, notes, making erroneous note adjustments, splitting out combined drum parts, etc., etc. To be truthful, at least 75% of my time with Allegro was spent looking through the Manual to try to figure out how to do basic things, and coming away after an hour or two by being totally frustrated. (I did do both of their 'quick start' "tutorials") and skimmed through their Manuals, at least looking fairly closely at the basic operations. But when you are new to that kind of stuff, 99% just "goes over your head" on the first reading (or viewing). If you are looking for a 'well-featured' notation program (Composer is very similar to Allegro in features, perhaps a few more that I find useful), that is not terribly expensive, and is extremely intuitive and has a very well written Manual, give Notation's Composer a "look-see". (They have a 30 day trial period (and a 90 day money back guarantee) that does not 'shut off' anything - you can Save, Print, etc.). Oh, if you do get it, tell them Frank Newman sent you (I'm serious. I have been conversing a lot with the President, Mark, and developer, Sherry. They will "get a kick out it".)

    So the tally is Orch = 2, Band = a "shut out" thus far.

    Frank
    Frank Newman - Houston, Texas, USA, Earth, Milky Way (for our 'extended' viewership)
    Vista Ult SP2, i7 chipset, 12Gb, 500Gb (int) + 1 & 1.5Tb ext., E-MU 1820, Sonar 8.5PE, VSampler, CME UF5, AcousModules (for 3D playback), GPO/JBB/CMB

  6. #6

    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4209fr View Post
    If you care to vote for a 'more favored', that would be nice.
    I like both versions. Both are very expressive and enjoyable.

    Sincerely,
    Jun Yamamoto
    Tokyo, Japan
    http://jun.music.coocan.jp/
    MIDI AND SAMPLING TECHNOLOGY HAS OPENED AN ENTIRE NEW WORLD OF MUSIC!

  7. #7

    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Hi, Frank - During another short break, I was lucky to have your piece next on my list for listening.

    So nice and rich---I can see now from scanning the thread that I'm in concurrence with the others, that the Orchestral version is the most musically satisfying.

    The first 2/3 is especially nice, and I didn't hear the trill problem. Shortening note length doesn't help when you're playing an instrument set to Monophonic mode, by the way.

    When the full Orchestra comes in, there are some minor problems that are hard to pinpoint, it's just not as natural and effective as the first part.

    Ha--You thought I might find this too wet. I'm a man of surprises I guess, because I didn't find it so--Reverb sounded appropriate in your recording.

    --Somehow the Tremolo is effecting the Organ at the end?---made it sound like a modern organ with an effect turned on--?

    Thanks for the post-- and Best of luck with your submissions in Houston.

    Randy B.

  8. #8
    Senior Member 4209fr's Avatar
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    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Greetings, Randy -
    I guess that you are hard at working with rehearsals?

    At the end of both versions I was looking for an effect along the lines of Prokofieff's Romeo & Juliet in the Montagues & Capulets scene, where you go from tutti orchestra at fff to strings at ppp, instantly. Only in my case, I'm already at p and the solo string quintet takes it from there to ppp. Yes, it is a solo string quintet at the end, not an organ, and no one is playing tremolo. I didn't like the way it turned out, but there is nothing that I can do about it, since I am using GPO and not the more recent string-related libraries. I have virtually no control over vibrato depth or speed (I tried controlling Aftertouch and cc17, but it made no difference). The heavy vibrato of solo strings in GPO probably makes the ending measure sound like tremolo and an organ.

    The ending of the Band version is more natural with the solo woodwind septet where the instruments are much more pliable with the CMB or JBB libraries.

    The tally is now at:
    Orchestra = 4
    Band = 1

    Frank
    Frank Newman - Houston, Texas, USA, Earth, Milky Way (for our 'extended' viewership)
    Vista Ult SP2, i7 chipset, 12Gb, 500Gb (int) + 1 & 1.5Tb ext., E-MU 1820, Sonar 8.5PE, VSampler, CME UF5, AcousModules (for 3D playback), GPO/JBB/CMB

  9. #9

    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Oh! Thanks for the explanation, Frank. I beg your pardon, I honestly thought you had brought an Organ in at the end, and that some odd Tremolo effect had been added--took me for a loop. Wow--that was a Quintet!---

    Well, it's the unnaturally fast swoops up from ppp to fff and back which are causing the odd sound. Having those instantly changing from one degree to the other is too literal. If you could get into your MIDI editor and give them steep but performable cc1 ramps up and down, the results would be more natural.

    Randy B.

  10. #10
    Senior Member 4209fr's Avatar
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    Re: Bach Adagio (for Orchestra & Concert Band - at not extra charge)

    Randy -
    I am assuming that your last comment was in relation to the final measure of the orchestral version. Actually, from previous comments of my posts, I have corrected the practice of cc1 "swoops" - just gentle undulations, now. And, in fact, the solo quintet (and septet in the band version) has no undulation of cc1 - just a straight-line diminuendo (I think from about 40 to 4). Maybe for more "continuous controlling" a very slight wave could be made in the straight line, but I didn't do that.

    I still think that the 'weird' sound is due to the heavy vibrato of the GPO solo strings. At p or lower, it is too much. I don't hear anything like this with the woodwinds in the band version. But, again, their vibrato, etc., is controllable, where the string's vibrato is not.

    Frank
    Frank Newman - Houston, Texas, USA, Earth, Milky Way (for our 'extended' viewership)
    Vista Ult SP2, i7 chipset, 12Gb, 500Gb (int) + 1 & 1.5Tb ext., E-MU 1820, Sonar 8.5PE, VSampler, CME UF5, AcousModules (for 3D playback), GPO/JBB/CMB

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