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Topic: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

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  1. #1

    Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    Did you see that guys? In the interview, Jeremy is telling you the same thing I\'ve been trying to knock into your skulls since the beginning of my days at this forum:

    You can\'t emulate the distance of a recorded instrument with reverb! You need original hall samples! Not timpanis that sound like they are being \"struck using the microphone as the mallet\" (Hehe funny guy), or microphones shoved right up the bell of the horn.

    It\'s like the developers carry some sort of a \"scientific interest\" in samples. \"oh we gotta get real close on this one.. capture all the details! I wonder what it sounds like inside the tubes!\"

    Sorry for the harsh use of words. Maybe some developers will finally realize the need of this hall/far micing approach now that a true professional has spoken out in public with his experience.

    On a sidenote; among all the orchestral libraries I own, few of them (except my custom samples) boast far recordings with hall ambience. The few that does include Roland orchestral Family and Miroslav. I think it is a pitty that with all this new gigastudio technology, I\'m forced to use 10 year old libraries.

    Thomas

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
    Did you see that guys? In the interview, Jeremy is telling you the same thing I\'ve been trying to knock into your skulls since the beginning of my days at this forum:

    You can\'t emulate the distance of a recorded instrument with reverb! You need original hall samples! Not timpanis that sound like they are being \"struck using the microphone as the mallet\" (Hehe funny guy), or microphones shoved right up the bell of the horn.

    It\'s like the developers carry some sort of a \"scientific interest\" in samples. \"oh we gotta get real close on this one.. capture all the details! I wonder what it sounds like inside the tubes!\"

    Sorry for the harsh use of words. Maybe some developers will finally realize the need of this hall/far micing approach now that a true professional has spoken out in public with his experience.

    On a sidenote; among all the orchestral libraries I own, few of them (except my custom samples) boast far recordings with hall ambience. The few that does include Roland orchestral Family and Miroslav. I think it is a pitty that with all this new gigastudio technology, I\'m forced to use 10 year old libraries.

    Thomas
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Nice try. It\'s all a matter of degree. Miroslav\'s samples are a lot closer mic\'ed than you think.

  3. #3

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    I find the same thing.
    Maybe it\'s because I\'m no good with verb settings, but the samples I like to use are usually the ones with a nice room sound already on them. Even if all my instruments aren\'t in the \'same\' room, it sounds better than unrealistically close mic\'d stuff through a digital hall.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
    I find the same thing.
    Maybe it\'s because I\'m no good with verb settings, but the samples I like to use are usually the ones with a nice room sound already on them. Even if all my instruments aren\'t in the \'same\' room, it sounds better than unrealistically close mic\'d stuff through a digital hall.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What reverb do you own? They come in two flavors only--cheap or good.

    I guarantee you, there are not many mainstream sample libraries out there which are mic\'ed too much closer than an average orchestral recording session. I\'m not talking about a college \"two mics in the air\" session, I\'m talking about a real-live, genuine, major label recording. They have mics EVERYWHERE.

    Thomas made a nice try to manipulate what was said in Jeremy\'s interview, while conveniently leaving out some critical facts. Jeremy has apparently produced his own sample library for the most part, which is great. He said he recorded\" room ambience samples\" which are great. Nowhere did he say that he used \"far\" mic\'ing techniques. Jeremy also stated that he uses very expensive reverbs. People tend to blame the samples for the fact that they\'re not getting good results, when the real problem is that they have not developed their engineering skills, or invested in the proper equipment for the job.

    It takes a while to learn to mix music--very smart people devote a lifetime of study to it. It\'s a real mistake to think that the engineering aspect of music mixing can be taken for granted.

    Some questions:

    Do you EQ the input and output of your reverb sends? This makes a huge difference--don\'t just take it \"straight out of the box.\" Design settings which work for particular instruments and sections...listen to the way a favorite recording sounds, then go to your work, listen, and go back and forth, altering EQ and Reverb settings on each instrument until you\'ve made them match. Later you can start trusting your ears more and wean yourself away from the constant A/B listening, but for learning to mix orchestras, you need to seriously apply yourself to the discipline.

    Also, don\'t underestimate the importance of EQ on your individual instrument tracks. Use high frequency shelving and cuts to take away detail from instruments you want to play farther back in the soundscape. Multi-band compression (which is like amplitude-invoked EQ, really) is also an excellent tool to use for pushing instruments up or back. The use of imaging tools like the Waves S1 can really be valuable--BUT avoid going \"wider\" than normal, because that will really get you into trouble with surround decoders.

  5. #5

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    ... and I quote Jeremy:

    \"My percussion is often sampled as far back as 40 feet from the source.\"


    Thomas

  6. #6

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    I\'m not manipulating anything about the Jeremy Soule interview.

    Thank you for your reply though. I still think it\'s funny how you keep repeating yourself on this topic.

    Now my question to you: Why is it that there is so much evidence in favor of relatively distant micing and hall/room ambience in samples and so little in favor of dry?

    I have yet to hear ANYONE recreate a realistic ambience feel with a set of dry samples.

    (And don\'t call mr. Simon Ravn or KingIdiot et al. inadequate engineers without proper reverb boxes.)

    Should it really be required from the composer that he has a sound engineering master and 10 hours of free time and patience to carry out this dirtywork of tweaking his reverb and eq settings before he can proceed to compose? I think not.

    Room ambient samples have two major advantages over dry ones in an orchestral setting:

    You get realistic hall that takes fine to a second reverb feed.

    You loose some of the detail from the instrument, thus masking flaws in the midi sequence.

    This is particularily true with percussion and brass. I still like my woodwinds and strings pretty close.

    No matter how much work you do with EQ and a $10000 reverb box, dry samples will sound like they were dry in the first place, and then manipulated.

    Please don\'t get started on a new flaming thread here. I\'m just so tired of hearing the same arguments pro close micing, and still not hearing any proof that all of this \"techtalk\" of yours actually pays off.
    Why don\'t you just post a clip utilizing your seemingly huge knowledge within the field of sound engineering, and shut my mouth once and for all?

    As the case stands, there is NO proof backing up your opinions. Remember this is SAMPLES we\'re talking about.


    Peace,
    Thomas

  7. #7

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    You\'re right Bruce. I should have thought back to a session we did last year before I commented - about 80 pieces in a reasonable size studio. When the engineer muted the 480L, what I heard was definitely not something I\'d want to play people, but with the reverb in, they sounded great.

    On the other hand, we don\'t have a 480L at work

  8. #8

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    Chadwick: and so will the early star wars recordings (which are way too dry to begin with) do if you apply a cheapass reverb, or even a $10k one. Real orchestras and samples are two COMPLETELY different matters.

    I\'ve used considerable amounts of various reverb units (including lexicons and TC\'s) with the help of skilled engineers. I\'m sorry to say but it didn\'t do anything for me. With a real orchestra, almost any reverb unit will do, because of all the detail that is in the recording to begin with.

    Thomas

  9. #9

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    I guess nobody on this forum likes the sound of dry samples. And I really hope you all can here the difference between a lexicon 480 and a real hall. Ive got a 480 in my studio and it cant fake a real hall. It sounds just like a very good digital reverb.

  10. #10

    Re: Jeremy Soule on hall/far-micing....

    I was just discussing peoples need for more room ambience on the LOP Timpani thread. With Gigastudio\'s capabilities why couldn\'t developers add some distance recorded samples along with the closer ones? Then people could blend the samples to taste via mod wheel, etc. Why not have the best of both worlds!

    Lance

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