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Topic: Logic Pro Fustration

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  1. #1

    Logic Pro Fustration

    I'm on the verge of giving up on Logic after nearly a year of learning and working with it. I'm to this point even though I have gotten fairly comfortable working with it using GPO, the Strad, and Gofriller. But the constant "Core Audio Failure!" and "System Overload!" interruptions are driving me batty. Can't remember if I've already asked about this problem on this forum, but I've been following the Apple forums about it for over a year. A lot of people are experiencing it. While plenty of suggestions have been made about adjusting buffers, freezing tracks, etc. the fact is that this seems to be a bug in Logic 7 that is perhaps even worse in Logic 8, judging from the complaints. (I was waiting for 8 in hopes it would be fixed!) To date--to my knowledge-- no Apple moderator or Logic rep has posted any response on the forum: stone silence.

    If anything, the problem on my rig has gotten worse over time. I used to be able to load several KP2 multis and play ten to twelve individual instruments without much interruption. Now, I can't play the Gofriller and a good piano (Akoustik Piano Bosendorfer) without this crashing the playback every few seconds. Yes, I know these are huge, complex sample sets but I'm pretty sure they ought not to be taxing my setup so! In GPO, if I load more than a four or five solo keyswitch instruments, and definitely if I load more than one KP 2 player, the error messages are going to start. Oddly, if I stay in the project file and work it long enough, the problem eventually diminishes after I run through a piece several times while editing. The Golem particularly dislikes key switches, suggesting that something in Logic or the Dual Core architecture just can't process switching among samples fast enough.

    I assume that not everyone in Garritan Land working on Mac experiences this problem, at least not to such a crippling extent, or there'd already have been more discussion on it. But if anyone has any thoughts, I'd appreciate whatever perspective you've got.

    Really, I'm on the verge of switching to DP! The only thing stopping me, besides $ and having to learn a new program, is not being 100% sure that the same problem isn't happening with other MAC sequencers. I. e., it might be a problem with the hardware?

    MacBook Pro
    Tiger 10.4
    7600 RPM Disk Drive
    2 GB RAM
    Fastrack Pro

    Logic Pro 7

    GPO
    Gofriller
    Strad
    Akoustik Piano

  2. #2

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Yep, I had this constantly. It seems to be a very common problem. Constant audio drop-outs that pervent folks from recording seems like the kind of thing you might want to fix before shipping. There is no way they could not have known about this.

    As a new mac user Logic 8 was one of the first programs I purchased. I have to say Microsoft should have come to my place to videotape their own PC/Mac commercial using the week or two of frustration I had even trying to record one track -- my voice in a microphone.

    Anyway -- I ended up adding another 2 gig of ram (going to 4) and that seems to have mostly solved my problem. This really isn't a ram issue though -- I had two gigs which should have been enough to record my voice without dropouts. Lots of people on the logic forums are having this problem as well.

    I still get the occasional drop-out but at least I can work now.


    I'm really not please with the quuality of logic 8.

  3. #3

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Unfortunately, there are a number of reasons (as you've become aware of) that create the frustrating core audio overload failure/system overload messages. In Logic 8 the process buffer range setting actually helps reduce the messages, so I guess that's a small victory (it seemed to do nothing in Logic 7).

    I have Logic 7 and 8 on my dual G5 with GPO, I have Logic 8 and JABB on my MacBook Pro. If you want to send me a GPO file that causes the error messages I will test it on my G5 (10.4.11, 6.5 gigs RAM), in both 7 and 8 and let you know what happens. If you have JABB I can test it on my MBP (10.4.11, 4 gigs RAM).

    Also, you say you have 10.4 - what version?

    Doug

  4. #4

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Hello Clay,
    Sorry to hear you are having so many problems. I've read about them on the Logic forums and it seems to be a real mystery why people with essentially the same setup have different results. I've been using Logic 8 for almost 6 months (moved to Mac, purchased Logic and DP) and have (knock on wood) not had the problems you have. One differentiator that would be core audio related is your audio card. What are you using? Have you tried switching to another audio card to see if the problem goes away? It might be worth a shot.

    I use DP much more than Logic and I can tell you that I've not had any issues there either, though the low resources error message used to crop up. There is a preference to turn that message off in DP and so I did. The result is that it doesn't pop up and I don't have any resources issues. Go figure.

    I would also recommend you upgrade to 4 GB of DRAM on your MacPro. Given the number of samples you are loading and all the keyswitching you are doing it may very well help. I'll also recommend that you upgrade to Leopard. I was on Tiger for 5 months before switching to Leopard and I haven't looked back. Everything about the move was positive.

    When keyswitching you are engaging two things. Disk reads if the sample you are switching to is not already in memory and memory allocation. It might be worth trying to load your samples onto an external drive and see if the problem goes away. I never have my OS on my samples drive because it is too much workload on the one drive.

    These are just some ideas off of the top of my head. If you can post more about your system maybe I or others can come up with some out of the box ideas that would be helpful.

    If you do decide to move to DP you will enjoy the program. It will take some getting used to because it uses an entirely different approach for a DAW than the likes of Cubase or Logic. However you will find it is very deep once you get used to it.

    Hope this helps,

    -Kevin
    We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams …
    24" 2.4 Ghz iMac, OSX 10.4.10, MOTU 828 MKII, 2 Glyph 250 Gig external drives, Logic 9, Finale 2008 GPO, JABB, Strad, Gro, Reason 4, EWQL Storm Drum, Adrenaline, Symphonic Choirs, SO Gold,All Arturia Synths, Many NI Synths, Spectrasonics Synths, KH Strings, VEPro on a Windows 7 4x 2.8 Ghz 12 gig of RAM

  5. #5

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Thanks for sharing my misery, Tim & Doug. It does love the company. FYI, I'm on OSX 10.4.8. And for now I've pretty much concluded that throwing more RAM at this or upgrading to L 8 is not the way I want to go. Instead, I'm considering throwing my $ into another sequencer altogether-- if I can get some reassurance that this or an equal Achilles Heal does not afflict , say, DP.

    I actually sent off a polite, slightly plaintive letter to Steve Jobs yesterday about this. It's outrageous that Apple/Logic has been silent for so long on a truly unacceptable bug. The idea that they released a new version without fixing it seems either the height of arrogance or incompetence, hard to know which. But I've found in the past that the CEO's office does respond to legitimate complaints, so I'll wait to hear back from them before diving into the D(ee)P end of the pool.

  6. #6

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Kevin-

    While it's true that my misery loves company, it's also glad to hear of someone who's happy with his Mac/Logic setup. Indeed, it's a mystery why seemingly identical setups should not be performing the same. Despite my last post, I am willing to invest more in RAM and different hardware if it will take care of the problem. It does in fact seem as though some component in my system is being overtaxed, even though CPU use is low and there seems to be plenty of RAM for what I'm doing.

    I just don't want to throw good money after bad. I'll gladly buy more equipment if it has a good chance of either fixing the problem or otherwise improving performance. I'm just leery of the Lemon Effect here; picturing hours and $ wasted without getting the jalopy's engine to stop misfiring.

    Two follow-up questions:
    Audio card--whatever I have is what Apple put into the laptop at purchase. Are there other options? I assume that's something best installed by Apple tech people.

    I have a Maxtor backup disk drive. Is that the kind of unit I could use for playing the AU's, or does it need to be something higher performance? At a certain point, what with dingle and audio/midi interface, the USB ports start getting pretty crowded.

    I am very temped by DP, though somewhat dreading the learning curve. But they do offer a 'crossover' incentive that is exerting some pull.

    Clay

  7. #7

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    For reference I'm on the latest update of tiger. I'm using an M-audio Audiophile Firewire with the latest drivers. As a test I also tried out the audio interface built in to my Novation X-Station and had the same problems -- but I never had any love from that interface on other systems either.

    The problem happened mostly when there was a midi track involved. Logic hated EZ Drummer and seemed to have a real hard time with its own reverb plugins. In my case the problem seemed to get worse as time went on. When I first started I could get a few seconds with no overloads (maybe 10 seconds) but near the end it would overload as soon as I hit play.

    As I say a ram update fixed my problem almost entirly. Its not a solution that makes me happy because I'm convinced I had to do a hardware upgrade to power my way through a software problem.

    Tim

  8. #8

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Hi Clay,

    10.4 is up to version 10.4.11 - you say you're on 10.4.8. Slight possibility you could gain something with the update. (This is the time when people recommend making an image of your hard drive so you can restore if it makes it worse.)

    You say you're using only the system audio? You may get better performance out of a dedicated audio hardware device, although then you can be victim of the drivers written by said provider of audio interface.

    My .02 is buy RAM before new software. I think you'll appreciate it even if you choose to switch to DP, and there's no learning curve.

    You kind of imply that you stream all your samples from your system drive? You only have one extra drive, the Maxtor, used as a backup?

    I would make sure I don't have samples on my system drive. If you are doing so, get an extra internal drive or external (firewire ports are not filled? Get a firewire drive). I'd get 7200 RPM at least, nothing slower.

    If more RAM and a new drive (if needed) don't help, switch to DP if you think it will help. However, it can have problems too - no program is perfect. The good news is all of what you have done will only make it run better.

  9. #9

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    I have been hearing great things regarding Logic 8. You may want copy and paste your original post here and ask if these issues have been dealt with sufficiently in Logic 8.
    http://discussions.apple.com/forum.jspa?forumID=1201

    An upgrade path may be less expensive then starting again from scratch on something else. Especially since these issues may no longer exist.

    And I must second Doug in upping your RAM. Remember, Garritan loads all the samples into RAM so that they will play with no lag. Something you might want to do is use Activity Monitor (in your Utilities folder) and watch your RAM usage. When you get this error, look at how the RAM is managing. If its peaked out, it may be a RAM issue.

    But talk to the folks at the link above. They will give you some great advice.
    Garritan on GarageBand '08 using Intel iMac with 1.5G RAM
    Listen to my collection here

  10. #10

    Re: Logic Pro Fustration

    Quote Originally Posted by claysf View Post
    Kevin-

    While it's true that my misery loves company, it's also glad to hear of someone who's happy with his Mac/Logic setup. Indeed, it's a mystery why seemingly identical setups should not be performing the same. Despite my last post, I am willing to invest more in RAM and different hardware if it will take care of the problem. It does in fact seem as though some component in my system is being overtaxed, even though CPU use is low and there seems to be plenty of RAM for what I'm doing.

    I just don't want to throw good money after bad. I'll gladly buy more equipment if it has a good chance of either fixing the problem or otherwise improving performance. I'm just leery of the Lemon Effect here; picturing hours and $ wasted without getting the jalopy's engine to stop misfiring.

    Two follow-up questions:
    Audio card--whatever I have is what Apple put into the laptop at purchase. Are there other options? I assume that's something best installed by Apple tech people.

    I have a Maxtor backup disk drive. Is that the kind of unit I could use for playing the AU's, or does it need to be something higher performance? At a certain point, what with dingle and audio/midi interface, the USB ports start getting pretty crowded.

    I am very temped by DP, though somewhat dreading the learning curve. But they do offer a 'crossover' incentive that is exerting some pull.

    Clay
    Hello Clay and sorry for the late reply. I lost track of the thread somehow.

    A few things. I don't know much about the internal sound card, however I can with some confidence say it probably is not as efficient or as good quality as a pro-sumer card would be. I'd look into a firewire or Express card for the Macbook Pro if I were you. Other people can probably help out with suggestions on this. I hesitate because I've only been in the Mac world for six months now.

    One thing to keep in mind about moving to DP that I forgot to mention. Logic (even Logic 7) is a good bit less resource intensive than DP. If you are having resource problems now, they will only increase with DP. That being said, DP version 6 that should be out this quarter is said to be very efficient. Time will tell.

    Regarding the USB drive. First off, it would take a great deal of data to clog up a USB 2 port. I would not worry about it that much. Just keep your audio (meaning project disks that you record audio to) disk on the Firewire 800 port and you should be fine. All of my AUs are installed on my OS drive, I just have the samples that some AUs use (Kontakt, Atmosphere, etc.) on the external drive. I would also keep this on the firewire port. (And to add to that, I keep both the project and sample disks daisy chained on the firewire 800 port.)

    The more I think of it, the more this is weird. You have a MacBook Pro, not a MacBook, correct? If so, the laptop should be more than fine to host Logic, even with 2 gig of DRAM. 4 is of course much better and for $99 or so at OtherWorldComputing it is a good buy. This points me to the hard disk. If you are only using the internal disk then this could be your problem, especially with only 2 gig of DRAM. You see, the best case is to have OS / Logic / AUs on the internal disk, samples on an external Firewire 800 disk and project files on another firewire 800 disk. (Chain the samples disk off of the projects disk.) This breaks up the intensive work on the internal drive which can easily get overloaded. If you were to add the extra disks and for some weird reason things were still awry, I'd say get a pro-sumer sound card. Either firewire (400 is fine in this case) or Express card. Maybe this helps prioritize where to spend money, then again maybe I'm full of s...ilicon.

    Hope this helps,

    -Kevin
    We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams …
    24" 2.4 Ghz iMac, OSX 10.4.10, MOTU 828 MKII, 2 Glyph 250 Gig external drives, Logic 9, Finale 2008 GPO, JABB, Strad, Gro, Reason 4, EWQL Storm Drum, Adrenaline, Symphonic Choirs, SO Gold,All Arturia Synths, Many NI Synths, Spectrasonics Synths, KH Strings, VEPro on a Windows 7 4x 2.8 Ghz 12 gig of RAM

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