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Topic: running into strange "Purge" problems

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  1. #1

    running into strange "Purge" problems

    Hello,

    I thought I understood that one could "load the entire orchestra" within 1 MB of ram. This apparently is a gross misunderstanding of plain advertising copy on my part. :-(

    I have 2 GB of ram on this machine, yet I am running into ram issues with only a VERY SMALL portion of "the orchestra" loaded. The out-of-ram messages appear from GPO, which then turns off the "audio engine" and then Tracktion dies (crashes).

    So ... I've been reading about the "Purge" menu, and I confess, I cannot get it to work as stated in the manual. If I Purge All Samples in an instrument, nothing plays on that track. If I Load all samples on that instrument, everything plays, but I'm bumping into RAM limits. If I load all samples, then select "Update Sample Pool," then sometimes I get nothing playing back, but more often than not, I get a VERY REDUCED AUDIO LEVEL on that track, which is far lower than how I set the audio levels in both GPO and Tracktion to begin with, before I started having RAM issues. And I cannot turn the levels high enough, in both GPO and Tracktion to get the normal levels I had earlier!

    I am very confused by this debilitating behavior.

    Will someone who understands how the Purge menu really works, please explain it to me better than the manual does? :-) Like why does it affect OUTPUT VOLUME?

    Thanks for ANY help!
    Michael

  2. #2

    Re: running into strange "Purge" problems

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelStrickland View Post
    Hello,

    I thought I understood that one could "load the entire orchestra" within 1 MB of ram. This apparently is a gross misunderstanding of plain advertising copy on my part. :-(

    I have 2 GB of ram on this machine, yet I am running into ram issues with only a VERY SMALL portion of "the orchestra" loaded. The out-of-ram messages appear from GPO, which then turns off the "audio engine" and then Tracktion dies (crashes).

    So ... I've been reading about the "Purge" menu, and I confess, I cannot get it to work as stated in the manual. If I Purge All Samples in an instrument, nothing plays on that track. If I Load all samples on that instrument, everything plays, but I'm bumping into RAM limits. If I load all samples, then select "Update Sample Pool," then sometimes I get nothing playing back, but more often than not, I get a VERY REDUCED AUDIO LEVEL on that track, which is far lower than how I set the audio levels in both GPO and Tracktion to begin with, before I started having RAM issues. And I cannot turn the levels high enough, in both GPO and Tracktion to get the normal levels I had earlier!

    I am very confused by this debilitating behavior.

    Will someone who understands how the Purge menu really works, please explain it to me better than the manual does? :-) Like why does it affect OUTPUT VOLUME?

    Thanks for ANY help!
    Michael
    To answer your question about purge: you have to let your sequencer play through the track once so that Kontakt knows which samples are used. Then you purge that channel and it will remove all unused samples. If you purge before playing through the track, then it thinks all samples are unused.

  3. #3
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    Re: running into strange "Purge" problems

    When GPO first came out using the older Kontakt 1.53 engine, you could load a whole Beethoven size orchestra in 1 GB. This is what I had back when beta testing GPO. The Beethoven's 5th demo I did was with this 1 GB setup.

    The Kontakt 2 Player though uses much more memory before an instrument is even loaded. I used to be able to load 10 instances of the Kontakt 1.53 engine and load up 8 slots in each with 2 GB of memory. I have a problem with Kontakt 2 Player being able to load more than 3 instances with 2 GB unless I play around with the DFD settings.

    As mentioned in the above post, you need to run through the whole song before clicking on the 'Update Sample Pool' button. Beware that GPO samples won't save too much space when purged except for maybe some of the strings and the piano.

    Your best bet is to work with the DFD settings especially if you get out of memory errors with few instruments loaded.

    Jim

  4. #4

    Re: running into strange "Purge" problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn View Post
    When GPO first came out using the older Kontakt 1.53 engine, you could load a whole Beethoven size orchestra in 1 GB. This is what I had back when beta testing GPO. The Beethoven's 5th demo I did was with this 1 GB setup.

    The Kontakt 2 Player though uses much more memory before an instrument is even loaded. I used to be able to load 10 instances of the Kontakt 1.53 engine and load up 8 slots in each with 2 GB of memory. I have a problem with Kontakt 2 Player being able to load more than 3 instances with 2 GB unless I play around with the DFD settings.

    As mentioned in the above post, you need to run through the whole song before clicking on the 'Update Sample Pool' button. Beware that GPO samples won't save too much space when purged except for maybe some of the strings and the piano.

    Your best bet is to work with the DFD settings especially if you get out of memory errors with few instruments loaded.

    Jim
    Jim,

    Thank you for your kind response!

    I've been corresponding with Mackie Tech Support (Tracktion's Developer), and the Tracktion project manager just asked me if I had enabled "GPO Disc Streaming." ... I hadn't, and didn't even know what it was, so now I've scoured the manual on this, and I do find something called "DFD" which is covered rather sparsely here and there, but there is apparently no description of it, and no definitive way listed to "enable" it.

    In attempting to experiment with DFD, I clicked the "Expert Mode" button, which immediately sent KP2 into cardiac arrest and it failed to respond after that. I was forced to restart the computer. In attempting to reopen this edit in Tracktion, I am now getting a dialog telling me that not enough memory is available for DFD (or something like that) and again, that the "audio engine" has been stopped ... <groan>

    I confess I am not very happy at the moment with GPO's advertising, or their documentation. But I am SO GLAD for the members of this forum! :-)

    If someone understands what DFD is and how to "enable" it, or how to fiddle with it on a 2-GB machine, without sending it (or me!) to the emergency room, I would be VERY grateful for any helpful explanation and suggestions on how to proceed.

    Best to all,
    Michael

  5. #5

    Re: running into strange "Purge" problems

    Well ...

    It's been a frustrating but extremely informative day for me today! :-)

    With the help of NI Tech Support, I learned what DFD is, and some of what I need to know in order to use it intelligently. On Native-Instrument's web site, there is a document called "DFD Demystified.pdf" which explains in detail how to get the most out of GPO for the amount or ram you have installed. It also describes exactly what DFD is, and helps the uninitiated user (such as myself) to find the best settings, not only globally for your computer system but for each GPO instrument! (A piano will require more ram, and possibly a higher DFD setting, than, say, a trumpet.)

    I ordered more physical ram today, and I also ordered an audio processing card/interface, which should help my ram limits and latency with GPO greatly. :-) I also installed "asio4all" which is an audio driver for Windows which should help too. And I set my virtual ram to a higher level ...

    It all should work together to make my GPO experience a better one than it was today. heh -- What a ride. :-)

    All I ever wanted to do was compose music. LOL

    Michael

  6. #6

    Re: running into strange "Purge" problems

    Hi, Michael--You've had some very helpful responses on your thread here. How exactly to purge samples--after your host has a chance of knowing which samples you're using--that was especially useful info.

    I'm here to say that as a non-notation user (I work in Sonar) - I've never had the need to have all my orchestral tracks playing together in real time. I work on a few tracks at a time, render them to audio (or Freeze the track) and move on to the next section. That's because of the limitations of my 1 gig Ram computer.

    When I was initially confronted with the inability to play everything at once, I thought it was a limitation, but it was really fairly painless to adapt to a method of working in bits, rendering to audio, and moving on. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to have the computer power of playing my 40 to 60 tracks at once while still being in the MIDI realm.

    Don't forget that necessity is the mother of invention--There's always an approach to figure out that will yield you the results you want.

    --But then again, that's all said from the viewpoint of a sequencer user. I would be virtually dead in the water if I couldn't actually play my keyboard to compose my music, and was stuck with working with notation.

    Randy B.

  7. #7

    Re: running into strange "Purge" problems

    Since there is no way to enable/disable DFD in KP2 and most of the GPO patches don't use DFD at all (the GPO Steinway is one of the few, that does), you should be able to get by with rather low DFD settings, as you won't likely run into a high DFD polyphony count. The patches, that are loaded entirely into RAM - and those are the majority - will contribute the most to the polyphony count and they are unaffected by the DFD settings.

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