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Topic: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

  1. #1

    Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    Here\'s an mp3 bounce file of some more percussion instruments from the session the test timpani came from:

    Any feedback on room, distance, sound, whatever... are welcome!

    Remember, these samples have a bad signal/noise-ratio, have therefore been filtered and/or denoised.

    These samples were miked pretty close (1 to 2 metres, depending on instrument). I\'ve decided to record the final samples in a hall, with a very clear distance in the samples. I used a hypercardiod capsule to keep the early room reflections out of the recordings.

    >>> There\'s another post downstairs from me with another mp3! <<<

    Hope to hear from you!


    [This message has been edited by Maarten Spruijt (edited 02-15-2002).]

  2. #2

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    Hmmm... I can\'t seem to get to your site. Either yesterday or today.

  3. #3

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....


    I have to be really careful how I present some of this but I\'m just trying to be honest and help.

    -the noise level is way to high for a commercially released product. Noise reduction of SNR at that level will only dull everything out. Specifically what mic\'s and mic preamps are you using? Also what kind of cables and how long?
    As a rule of thumb I don\'t use any noise reduction unless I absolutely have too. No matter how good the NR is it will always take away from the sparkle of the sound. We usually just keep tweaking with the recording process to get the SNR where we want it (-74 or lower).

    -the snare drum at the begining is not a concert snare drum. It sounds like a drum set snare with a cloth muffling the head.

    -get a new snare drum player. Very weak sounding tone and technique.

    -The bass drum head is VERY out of tune with itself. You should really check this out.

    -The gong sounds nice and has a good tone.

    -The sus. cym. is too heavy and not characteristic of an orch. cym. Orch. percussionist spend years searching for sus. cym\'s with a quick lush attack. The cym. in the demo I would guess is an older Zildjian about 20\" in diameter. Generally we use sizes from 14\"-18\". I can remeber Sean and I literally going through over 50 cym\'s to pick out the ones we used.

    -Get a new tambourine. It has way to much head noise. The calf on the tamb. in the demo is way to thick and thats whats causing the problem. Try muffling the bottom of the head with the other hand on the softer notes. This will take out a lot of the head noise.

    -the bongos should be played with the hands and not sticks.

    -the attacks on the last couple woodblock notes (not the temple blocks) are clipped to close. You might want to check those.


    Again, let me say I\'m just trying to help here so please don\'t flame me. If you look on another topic I gave Maarten lots of helpful ideas that most competitors would never give.

    Percussion is a strange and complex beast. This is why I\'ve said for years that the reason percussion samples haven\'t come out well in the past is because it really takes insight from a percussionist to pull it off.


    [This message has been edited by donnie (edited 02-13-2002).]

  4. #4

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....


    I made a little demo of some of our sounds to show you some things I was talking about in my above post. Now, I know that you know I\'m just trying to help but for everyone else this is not to try to say mine is better than yours or anything.


  5. #5

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    I have\'nt heard the samples yet - just want
    to make a quick comment on one of Donnie\'s

    The Bongos:
    By all means keep the sticks - that\'s what
    \'Safri Duo\' does. dam da dam da da dam! :-)


  6. #6

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....


    Yes I like the Safari Duo also BUT we are talking about an ORCHESTRAL percussion library and in the orchestra you use your hands.....sorry!


  7. #7

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    Hey Donnie,

    No flaming from my side!
    Very good points all of them *except* the first:

    I KNOW the noise level in these samples is way too high. As I said I won\'t let that happen to the final samples ofcourse. The reason I used filtering and denoising here is simply to make the best out of bad samples. Again, I won\'t do that on the new ones!

    About your other points:

    For the test samples, I didn\'t check any of the instruments for bad things. The snare isn\'t a real drumset snare, but I know it\'s not a real concert snare either. No insult, but can you really get an impression of a player\'s tone by hearing 3 hits and one short roll?

    At this moment I\'ll not go into detail with you about every instrument, but I\'ll certainly take your comment serious. I\'ve yet to decide which location to do the recordings. I\'ve got two locations with two completely different instrument sets to choose from.


    I am NOT trying to create ultra-clean, top-of-the-notch-performance samples. The whole concept of BOTH this library and the SAM trumpet is to keep some amount of human-realism and rawness into the samples. I don\'t want them to be clinical and cold. This means there CAN be some flaws and characteristic instrument sounds in the samples. I know from my OWN experience that you NEED samples like this. You can\'t make a 100% convincing midi production with just over-perfect and over-clean samples, because you get an over-perfect and clinical performance! Many people on this forum will agree with that.

    The test timpani is one of those \"raw\" samples and people really like it, while there\'s probably a lot to comment on the instrument or player (which is me but no offense)

    Ofcourse, I completely realize that you have to find a balance, a compromise between rawness and perfection. But again, I don\'t believe in 100perfect samples.

    Thanks a lot for making your post Donnie. As you said yourself that\'s a really sportive attitude!


  8. #8

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    Some of the sounds seem a little close (Cymbal, tambo, woodblock). Not much else to say really. What I can hear of the room sounds a bit small, but a nice sound nonetheless. (maybe it only sounds small because of distance).

    Good luck Maarten.

  9. #9

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    Hi Maarten,

    I\'m absolutely no expert when it comes to sampling, but I\'d really love it if distance was an audible factor in your final samples. I don\'t know the exact distances to use. I do know that one of the big things we liked about Donnies UOP was at last the sounds of the percussion family were starting to sound like they sat right in the mix.

    I also us a really cheap library for some of my percussion because the sounds are really distant, you can really hear the hall (its not a room, its a HALL). Things like wood blocks and claves etc sound great in a natural hall with some real distance in the sound. I use these all the time because the sound I like is right there without having to set up extra reverb settings etc. Something about that distance makes it sound more realistic to me.

    Then again I\'m sure others will want more of a choice and you can always add verb.

    In the end, REALISM is the key. If you have realism at the right price, the library will be a hit.

  10. #10

    Re: Some other samples from the TEST PERCUSSION session to judge....

    OK Robert now you convinced me of the distant feel in the samples.

    The 2nd location I mentioned is the hall we recorded the SAM trumpets in. Now, in the samples you all have, all reverb trails were slightly faded out, because I thought they were too long.

    Same would happen to the percussion, but it would have the room to really breath and, hopefully, fit right into the mix.


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