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Topic: Various issues

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  1. #1

    Various issues

    I've got a couple problems I need some help with. I'm using GPO and JABB in Digital Performer 5.1

    First, in the GPO String KS Ensembles, I've noticed that the various patches range quite dramatically in volume. In other words, when I hit the Pizzicato Key Switch on the 1st Violins, it is dramatically quieter than the Sus+Short Key Switch, and the Short Bows Key Switches are extremely louder than all the other Key Switches. I've been accommodating for this by moving the volume control all over the place. Sometimes I can get away with this without that awkward volume lurch, and sometimes I can't, but the point is that it's a huge pain to have to do.

    I'm sure this can't be normal, otherwise I can't imagine anyone else using the library, but I can't figure out what setting I need to set to fix this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Second, I recently had to reinstall my Garritan libraries. Ever since I did, whenever I start up a new project, I have to go through each individual instrument I load, go into the instrument options and check the box marked "Accept standard controllers for Volume and Pan" so that the automation will work. There must be a way to set this to the default so that I don't have to do this for sixty instruments every time I start a new project, since I never had to do this before I reinstalled, but I can't figure out what it is. Any assistance would be GREATLY appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Michael

  2. #2

    Re: Various issues

    Hi, Michael,

    I thing the most important question in finding the solution to your problem is "how are controlling volume?"

    Are you using CC#1 (mod wheel) or CC#7 (volume)? The mod wheel is, of course, the appropriate way to do it, as that controls timbral changes in the tone, as well.

    I use Sonar, and use DPDan's tutorial to set up the outputs (he is also a Digital Performer guy, hence the handle).

    With this method, once I'm happy with the individual instrument MIDI performances, I freeze the tracks to audio, and then pan the audio tracks, and apply and level automation that wasn't covered by the CC#1 data.

    As far as the keyswitches being different volumes, that's a puzzler. My keyswitches are play the same volume, dependant on the setting of the mod wheel.

    Don't forget that pizz strings are not controlled by the mod wheel, but key velocity. All the sutaining patches are controlled by the mod wheel.

    Good luck,

  3. #3

    Re: Various issues

    McDaniel - "... "Accept standard controllers for Volume and Pan" so that the automation will work..." You mean you're wanting to use MIDI panning and volume control in your DAW? I know some people work that way, but I've never quite understood why.

    If you use GPO and JABB as programmed, as raweber encouraged you to do, you'll use CC1 for volume and the other list of MIDI controllers for expressive MIDI recording - Then leave the panning and audio volume control for the final mixing portion of your project.

    The instruments are defaulting to Not accepting standard controllers because they weren't programmed that way, and there's no handicap involved with that set up.

    Randy B.

  4. #4

    Re: Various issues

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    McDaniel - "... "Accept standard controllers for Volume and Pan" so that the automation will work..." You mean you're wanting to use MIDI panning and volume control in your DAW? I know some people work that way, but I've never quite understood why.

    If you use GPO and JABB as programmed, as raweber encouraged you to do, you'll use CC1 for volume and the other list of MIDI controllers for expressive MIDI recording - Then leave the panning and audio volume control for the final mixing portion of your project.

    The instruments are defaulting to Not accepting standard controllers because they weren't programmed that way, and there's no handicap involved with that set up.

    Randy B.
    That's weird, because before I had to reinstall, I never had to do this before. GPO and JABB always acknowledged my MIDI automation controls by default...I didn't even know the "Accept controllers..." button existed because I'd never had a problem with it. When I reinstalled, I posted on here asking why GPO and JABB weren't acknowleding the automation, and someone told me about the button.

    The handicap is that when I'm recording a demo for a sixty minute film score with 60-100 tracks, it saves an infinite amount of time and disk space if I record the different sections directly into stereo tracks and then mix those together rather than having to record each individual instrument into audio and then going in and doing all the automation manually.

    Plus, for most of my work, I write in Finale and save it to MIDI, then import the MIDI file into DP, so that I don't have to play 60+ tracks in manually (and so that if I have any live players I've already got their part written and ready to print in Finale), so the automation is already mostly done by Finale's Human Playback and I just have to go in and tweak the problem spots.

    It's all about time efficiency. I work in the way that gives me the most ammount of time to write, and the least ammount of time fiddling around in DP, until I start making enough money to hire someone to do the fiddling for me.

    If there's no way to change the default, I'll just deal. I just don't understand why it did it the other way before and doesn't now, so I figured there must be a way to change it back.

  5. #5

    Re: Various issues

    Could you set up a template in DP with GPO already set up, that way you only have to do it once, not every time? Then import the new MIDI from Finale?

  6. #6

    Re: Various issues

    One other thing you need to watch for the volume of a particular keyswitch is the velocity of the notes. Velocity on pizzicato parts is the only real volume control. Strings become like percussion instruments and pianos in that the higher the velocity, the hard the note is plucked (or struck) and consequently louder. If your velocities are very low than when you keyswitch to pizzicato the sound will be soft.

    Velocity on wind and string instruments relates to the attack of the tongue and air stream on wind instruments and the aggressiveness of bowing on string instruments. Care should be taken in how much velocity is on the start of a note and especially to that velocity in context of the mod wheel setting for volume. If a clarinetist is playing short aggressive notes and the velocity is too low one would get the effect of trying to say nyah, nyah with peanut butter on the rough of the mouth. Conversely, if a violinist is running a slurred fast pattern with to high a velocity it would leave a thumping effect on each note of the passage.

    Just some observations that I have dealt with and discovered in the past few years. I hope it helps a little.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  7. #7

    Re: Various issues

    Hello again, McDaniel - I understand, it really is a pain when the way we're accustomed to working suddenly gets disrupted for some unknown blankety b!@%@!! reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdaniel View Post
    ...I record the different sections directly into stereo tracks and then mix those together rather than having to record each individual instrument into audio and then going in and doing all the automation manually.
    I can't honestly say I understand everything in your description about how you work. But in that quote above, why do you think the automation has to be done "manually"--? The automation you're referring to, do you mean just the automatically machine generated "human playback" automation? You never record volume and velocity dynamics in real time with a keyboard? I guess you must mean that you don't. Audio automation is pretty quick to record in real time - but do you mean you haven't been doing that in the past either?

    I'm sorry though, that what I'm basically not understanding is why it's more time consuming to use the cc1 volume control the instruments are programmed with instead of the cc7 you want to switch to--? They both take some time, the same amount of time--don't they?

    ----Well, obviously I'm unclear, not grasping what you're saying since it's alien to me. Sorry I can' really help.

    Randy B.

  8. #8

    Re: Various issues

    Let me give this a shot, Randy. mdaniel is inputting all the MIDI data into Finale already, in the form of notation. Finale's Human Playback algorithm does a fairly decent job of outputting some of that controller data by interpreting the score markings.

    What mdaniel doesn't want to do it input all that data twice, since he's dealing with an abundance of tracks and a tight schedule. Think about how long it took you to produce each of your Dorian tracks, and then cut that in half.

    What he wants is to be able to let Finale take care of all of the MIDI data entry for him, so he can concentrate on writing and then mixing the final product. While GPO data entry is pretty streamlined and can mostly be entered in real time while recording the notes, if you're not recording the notes, that's additional passes through the material.

    So, mdaniel, am I close?

    What I'm curious about - doesn't Finale HP generate CC#1 for GPO tracks? Or does it always defaut to CC#7?

  9. #9

    Re: Various issues

    Quote Originally Posted by raweber View Post
    Let me give this a shot, Randy. mdaniel is inputting all the MIDI data into Finale already, in the form of notation. Finale's Human Playback algorithm does a fairly decent job of outputting some of that controller data by interpreting the score markings.

    What mdaniel doesn't want to do it input all that data twice, since he's dealing with an abundance of tracks and a tight schedule. Think about how long it took you to produce each of your Dorian tracks, and then cut that in half.

    What he wants is to be able to let Finale take care of all of the MIDI data entry for him, so he can concentrate on writing and then mixing the final product. While GPO data entry is pretty streamlined and can mostly be entered in real time while recording the notes, if you're not recording the notes, that's additional passes through the material.

    So, mdaniel, am I close?

    What I'm curious about - doesn't Finale HP generate CC#1 for GPO tracks? Or does it always defaut to CC#7?
    I see, I bet you're right, Rob. Interesting! And makes sense. I've never dealt with any of that, so it's been a mystery.

    Your last question is what I'd like to know too - Isn't Finale generating the needed cc1 data?-in which case, why isn't that auto-generated data working for you, McDaniel, with the instruments set to their defaults?

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Various issues

    Quote Originally Posted by raweber View Post
    Let me give this a shot, Randy. mdaniel is inputting all the MIDI data into Finale already, in the form of notation. Finale's Human Playback algorithm does a fairly decent job of outputting some of that controller data by interpreting the score markings.

    What mdaniel doesn't want to do it input all that data twice, since he's dealing with an abundance of tracks and a tight schedule. Think about how long it took you to produce each of your Dorian tracks, and then cut that in half.

    What he wants is to be able to let Finale take care of all of the MIDI data entry for him, so he can concentrate on writing and then mixing the final product. While GPO data entry is pretty streamlined and can mostly be entered in real time while recording the notes, if you're not recording the notes, that's additional passes through the material.

    So, mdaniel, am I close?

    What I'm curious about - doesn't Finale HP generate CC#1 for GPO tracks? Or does it always defaut to CC#7?
    You are on the nose, Rob. In regards to your question, and Randy's question, Finale - for me at least (it seems as if my computer seems to be doing everything arse backwards...) - defaults the Volume control to CC#7. I'm sure there is a way to change that, but I haven't put the time into figuring it out, since CC#7 has worked fine for my purposes so far (until all this BS started, of course).

    Plus, even if I did start doing the Volume as CC#1, there is the matter that I'd still have to go in to each instrument and click that annoying box so that it will acknowledge the panning I've assigned. That's the other reason why I can't understand why there isn't away to make that box the default option, since I'm sure I can't be the only person who wants to have the panning controlled by MIDI.

    Could you set up a template in DP with GPO already set up, that way you only have to do it once, not every time? Then import the new MIDI from Finale?
    Theoretically, I could, but I very rarely use the same instrumentation between projects. Sure, I could create one DP file that had every single GPO and JABB patch prepared, but by the time the file had finished opening, and I'd deleted the instruments I wasn't using, and then restarted DP (and probably the computer as well...) to free up the RAM I'd wasted in opening the Template file in the first place, I might as well have just gone through each box. Not to mention that by the time I finished preparing that Template, Garritan would probably have already released an update making it possible for me to set that stupid box as a default anyway.

    One other thing you need to watch for the volume of a particular keyswitch is the velocity of the notes. Velocity on pizzicato parts is the only real volume control. Strings become like percussion instruments and pianos in that the higher the velocity, the hard the note is plucked (or struck) and consequently louder. If your velocities are very low than when you keyswitch to pizzicato the sound will be soft.

    Velocity on wind and string instruments relates to the attack of the tongue and air stream on wind instruments and the aggressiveness of bowing on string instruments. Care should be taken in how much velocity is on the start of a note and especially to that velocity in context of the mod wheel setting for volume. If a clarinetist is playing short aggressive notes and the velocity is too low one would get the effect of trying to say nyah, nyah with peanut butter on the rough of the mouth. Conversely, if a violinist is running a slurred fast pattern with to high a velocity it would leave a thumping effect on each note of the passage.
    Yeah, I've noticed the Pizzicato velocity thing. What I'm talking about is that it is drastically quieter or louder. In other words, if I were to use separate tracks for each voice instead of the one KS patch, I'd have to turn the volume on the Sus+Short patch up to, say, +6 Db, I'd have to turn the Short Bows patch all the way down to, say, -20 Db, the Pizzicato down to -10 Db, etc., etc. That's way more than just a velocity issue, and what I've been having to do.

    It's actually doing the same thing throughout all of the instruments in GPO and JABB, it's just that it's easier for the non-keyswitch instruments just to change the volume on each track and balance it that way. And since I record each section into one Stereo file, I can Normalize each file so that they all come out even in the end. Would be nice, though, if I could figure out why it does this in the first place, since that would free up even more of my time.

    It sounds like my computer is just all bass ackwards here. Sigh. I'd hoped these were common issues that people were having and there were simple solutions to them. No such luck, I guess. Can't figure out why for the life of me Garritan would be acting so drastically different on my computer...it's not like I'm messing around with the presets (except for the stupid box thing).

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