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Topic: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

  1. #1

    I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    I can say I am rapidly coming of age as far as CCs and their handling on tracks, etc. However:

    Here are three new problems.

    1. Cakewalk SHS6 XL: When using synths, envelopes work like a charm, but in JABB/Kontakt 2.2.4, I am not able to make them work. No crescendo, no diminuendo, the sound remains even, even when I insert CCs into the track(s).

    2. In spite of inserting a Nudge, when starting palyback I get no sound. Have to give slight nudge to the Mod weel.

    3. I am experimenting with the Fluegelhorn samples. I can obtain a Miles Davis sound, the one that he had in Porgy & Bess (Gill Evans), and I can also obtain Paul's (see below) sound till A4, but for the life of me I have no idea how he obtained that smooth sound beyond this note. I am trying to tweak every effect in Kontact also using the Sonitus paragraphic EQ that comes with Sonar and still can't obtain a uniformly smooth sound. Some of the notes are OK, but others change their pitch, usually detune and sound somewhere between a trumpet and and English Horn.

    I cannot find links to Paul (the gentleman who did such a masterful job with his PaulReadMrGRemix2.mp3 fluegel cum Big Band file). Don't know his full name. Whenever I hear that sound I am humbled by his absolute technical mastery, and the music of course (it's an incredibly crafty composition, very thematic, micromotif transformation, orchestration, and a perfectly logical harmonic structure).

    Paul, if you read this, could you please answer with a post?

    Thanks everyone,


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Chandler, Arizona

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    Are you using CC1 for adding dynamics? CC7 (Volume) will not work for this in JABB.

    Make sure you add CC1 (Modulation) at the beginning of the track before the instrument starts playing.


  3. #3

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    How's the battle going, Sylva?

    I just now saw your older post where you said, "...I still don't know how and where to place controllers into Sonar..." and I was ready to post a reply, but now I see in your newer post that you seem to have discovered the Piano Roll View and the panes where all controllers can be edited and/or inserted. Good - this is the Heart of Sonar when you're creating MIDI based projects.

    Haydn has give you the info about what you were doing wrong - CC#1 (Mod Wheel) is the Volume control for sustaining instruments in Garritan Libraries. Once you start recording or inserting that, you'll be going to town.

    If you're using a keyboard, record the Mod Wheel in real time - It's easy and fun to feel out the dynamic changes needed to make your music live. Drawing in the data works, it's just not as intuitive and calls for more trial-and-error.

    Do more than just insert a value at the start of the track - have the CC1 in almost constant motion in order to emulate the instruments. And as Haydn said, you need to make sure some of that data happens before the instrument starts playing in order for the volume to be up where you want it for the first note. That's why it comes in handy at times to have an extra blank measure at the start of your projects.

    Do you have manuals for JABB and Cakewalk? They're very helpful for the basic issues like this. All the Garritan manuals make a very big point about how these Libraries use MIDI controllers differently from standard MIDI synths.

    Hope you're doing better with your set up now.

    Randy B.

  4. #4

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    Thank you BOTH. You're very gracious indeed.

    I have the manuals for both. I read the JABB manual cover to cover at least 5 times and peruse it constantly. Yeah, I AM inserting CC1 at the beginning of tracks and the Mod wheel problem has been solved. As far as Cakewlk I am pretty conversant now and exploring its lower depths. I have SHS6 XL. This program, even though not the highest of Sonars, is a very strong DAW. I really like it and, fortunately, I built a powerful computer enough to process up to 40 tracks seamlessly. It may be even better than that, but I haven't had music to require more than 40 tracks, that is yet. Now that I have JABB and GPO the situation may soon change.


    I am having a TERRIBLE time with making Trumpets sound realistically. Actually, I am having a HELL of the time making them even approach the trumpet sound. With the Fluegelhorns I "came to an understanding" of sorts, that is, I obtained that faintly fuzzy tone that Miles Davis uses in Porgy & Bess, but I am absolutely not being able to obtain what one hears in Paul Read's MrGremix demo. That's an incredible work and would like to emulate its sounds.

    When I import the Trumpets (any of the 5) into Kontact Player 2.2.4, they sound outrightly terrible. Extremely thin and more than unevenly. Each sound seems to be different and even more so when registers change. I tweaked everything JABB has to offer and more, that is combined its effects with external effects, such as Sonitus' paragraphic EQ that comes with SHS as well as some other, free, effects, all to no avail. I must be doing something fundmentally wrong. Maybe I am too demanding, since I played the trumpet for quite a few years and have very good ears for the orchestra as a whole.

    It's very true, I am a newbie as far as JABB is concerned, but not in music or high tech or recording for that matter. This is what most of my battle (to use Randy's word) rages around. And raging it does.

    Now, any of you know of another method to work out vibrato note by note via MIDI messages? Yes, it works with my Axiom61, but I am one of those musicians how likes technical work and I'd rather work out nuances, articulations and agogics not by note (when necessary).

    Anyway, I've given you a mouthful.

    Thanks again.

    Last edited by sylva; 02-09-2009 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Adding thoughts.

  5. #5

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    Hi, John - Thanks for the update.

    Sounds like you have made progress. You say here that you're "...inserting CC1 at the beginning of tracks and the Mod wheel problem has been solved..." But I hope you don't mean you're just inserting one value by mouse at the start of a track and leaving it at that.

    Since you've studied the JABB manual, you probably understand that as I said in my previous reply, CC1 volume control is absolutely critical to any kind of realistic playback - it needs to be almost constantly changing throughout a song, and that's most intuitively accomplished with a keyboard's Mod Wheel.

    As for your challenge of making acceptable recordings using the JABB Trumpets - That's not an uncommon challenge. Those samples are good ones, but there is a limit to how organic feeling Trumpet samples are going to sound. Making the most of them depends entirely on how much you work the music--And I can tell you want to do that, editing note-by-note where necessary.

    Besides the crucial CC1 work - which goes a Long ways to making those samles come to life, you want to understand the use of Vibrato in JABB better:

    --As it says in the manual, Vibrato intensity is controlled by Aftertouch. And the speed of the Vibrato is controlled by CC17.

    If you want to work on those values on a per note basis as you indicated, in Sonar Home Studio's Piano Roll View (the MIDI editor) you choose Aftertouch in the menu, and draw in the swoops of Vibrato where you want them. When you want to play with the speed of the Vibrato, call up #17 in an editing pane, and draw more data in.

    If you want to record the Aftertouch on your keyboard, it has to be capable of sending that out. If it doesn't have Aftertouch, try using CC131 as a substitute.

    Randy B.

  6. #6

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    Thanks again, Randy!

    True enough, I am using the Mod wheel as you're suggesting. Problem is, it does not really solve sound uniformity. Yeah, I jack up the wheel when the instrument goes into its higher registers to overcome that strangled, fuzzy sound. But that's hardly trumpet sound. I made progress with the mid register, which is acceptable now. I am using Sonitus EQ more than the triple EQ in Kontakt Player because the foot print of its graphic window is about 8 times larger than Kontakt's, so resolution of the curve is much better. I also have Miroslav Phil open just for comparison. The trumpet there is absolutely beautiful. No need for tweaking at all. But, of course, it's symphonic trumpet, NOT jazz. I keep it open just to make me able to not forget the real timbre of a trumpet.

    Miroslav's trumpet has another problem, which extends to most of its instruments: it's that what I call the "whap whap" effect. This pertains to attack. When one presses a key on a controller keyboard, before any sound occurs there is something like a reversed reel-to-reel tape effect. Direct sound never comes on time. No, it's not time delay because of my sound card or controller. I have a Delta44 on which I get 2.9 ms latency, which is pretty good. On my 64 bit system this goes down to 1.6 ms. This is why I did not buy Miroslav. Garritan doesn't seem to have this problem, but it surefire has other. If Garritan were to argue that they gave us some sample sound and then we'd transform it to our liking, I'd say a big NO, you guys give us a well-sounding sample and THAN, if we care modifying it, we'd tweak its effects and other parms. For example, the sound should be uniform throughout the sample. We could still afftect it by changing dynamics if that warranted it. And, suppose, I want to use variable vibrato. Under this assumption, I'd need a third hand because one would play the keyboard, one would tweak the Mod wheel and the third would work the slider that has CC131 to vary vibrato. This is why I am working on varying sound amplitude by inserting MIDI messages on every note.

    Well, is there another way? Of course there is, just as you indicated in your reply above: inserting CC17 into every note that you want to vibrate. But to my mind there's a problem with this: CC17 will tell the system about the speed of the vibrato. But is there another byte (like a low or high level byte) that could be inserted to indicate the amount of change in intensity in stead of constantly pushing the CC131 slider back and forth? There should be a way of doing this.

    Getting wordy again.


  7. #7

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    John, I can at least assure you on the last point of your post, and that is to say that Yes indeed you need to work your MIDI data.

    To use all the possible tools, there's no point in attempting to do it all at once, like the old one-man-band with cymbals strapped to his knees and contraptions around his neck to hold various instruments.

    You can "perform" the different parameters of a performance in several passes, in multiple layers of MIDI - you aren't forced to hand draw and tweak every note. Record in real time your volume, vibrato, portamento, whatever you want to use - then do some cleaning up in the Piano Roll View by hand. Yes, that's what producing music with a computer is all about.

    I do recommend you try more live recording of the data than you seem to be doing. Just one CC at a time.

    Lots of folks, me included, are happy with the samples in the libraries, so of course can't help with your apparent personal dissatisfaction, but I do think that with more experience your frustration won't be coloring your judgments of the sounds you're working with.

    I wish you the best with your music.

    Randy B.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Chandler, Arizona

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:


    Does your keyboard have channel aftertouch? If so, then you don't need to add CC131 for vibrato control. To use many of the Garritan libraries, it's recommended to have a keyboard controller with this feature.

    Which trumpet are you using? The trumpet 1 on my system is pretty consistent in dynamics and tone up until the upper register break. It's pretty common for many lead trumpet players to have a change in tone up in this range. Full CC1 with a medium amount of velocity is pretty close to the basic sample sound. I have recordings of the musician who played the trumpet and the samples sound pretty much just like his real playing. I'm not quite sure what your looking for in the sound of the trumpet. I've used this trumpet in quite a few pieces and have done some mockups of Chicago and Blood, Sweat & Tears pieces. The trumpet sounded quite nice for that sound.

    You can't really compare the Miroslav trumpet as that is a classical eastern european voiced trumpet sound. That is a totally different sound than most jazz musicians will make.


  9. #9

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    Thank you both again.

    If you read my last posting carefully, I clearly state that the trumpet sound in Miroslav is NOT a jazz articulated trumpet. I only said that the trumpet in Miroslav's samples is very realistic. The Czech Philharmonic's trumpets have a very characteristic sound indeed. They sound differently from those of the Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic. They are a lot sweeter.

    What I am looking for? Well, at least what I hear in the Garritan JABB demos, which is quite realistic. What I am served as samples at the raw get go (when I call them up in Kompakt Player) has to be tweaked because it's quite uneven. And, yes, on the higher registers the sound changes too drastically, becoming very thin and out of tune. However, it's not what one hears in the demos. There, some of the trumpets play in tune and with full sound in the highest of the registers. Sounds quite good.

    Now: so is the Bari Sax, however this very moment I managed to transform it into a pretty good, though a bit thicker, Gerry Mulligan vintage 1950s such as in his extraordinary productions with his unequaled Quartet. The sound is acceptably even till about Gb4, but some of the sounds in all registers are somewhat buzzy. Most of the sounds have that characteristic faint rasp, which is good. With a bit of air added, buzzing is diminished to a certain extant.

    I have yet to manage the same with trumpets. I am using Trumpet 1 and 2 so far. They both sounded badly on my Delta44 as well as Xonar DX7cards.I made some progress, but am not satisfied yet. As I stated before, Bones and Tuba are quite good.

    My Axiom61 is supposed to have Channel Aftertouch. Problem is I didn't manage to get it working so far. This is why I have CC131 on a slider. What happened is that for some reason Axiom malfunctioned and I had to press the panic button. On the Axiom61 this means that you have to reload it with all of its controls anew with the aid of M-audio's controls editor Enigma. I did, but so far I am not getting native aftertouch.

    I am not wed to individual instrument sounds. I intend to build ensembles soon. The trumpets may sound better in an amalgamated environment.

    Of course, I am conscious that with experience and lots of experimentation things will get much better. I never said that JABB is a bad library. All I was saying that I didn't seem to be able to obtain a good trumpet sound. I am writing NOT to express my unhappiness with JABB, but to get feedback which you both so graciously provided. Thank you again.

    Randy, I've seen the "old man's band" in an Italian mountain town. But the man wasn't old, he was young and rather drunk. He came so close to me I could smell his foul breath. I gave him some money though, see, he was a fellow musician. What I remember is that his piece sounded quite loud and it was in A major. I suddenly felt I was transported to the 16th century. Oh well...

  10. #10

    Re: I cleared my lack of knowledge in inserting CCs, BUT:

    It's unfortunate you're still have the difficulties, Sylva.

    I do know that Gary makes a point of having demos of the Libraries be done "out of the box," albeit by experienced MIDI musicians. He wants the demos to be an honest representation of how the Libraries can sound without extra plugins and programs.

    But I doubt many, or any of the demos were recorded in real time. The best results with any soft synths and music software come from a lot of editing work, as I'm sure you know.

    That's meant to be encouraging. Others have made superlative recordings with JABB, and I'm sure you will with time.

    Randy B.

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