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Topic: The Listening Room and other libraries

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  1. #1

    The Listening Room and other libraries

    Welcome to the Listening Room!

    Here you can share your music, receive constructive criticism, collaborate and enjoy great music made by other members.

    This section is for Garritan library users helping other Garritan library users. We ask that if you post music here that at it uses some of the sounds of our libraries. This makes sense since it is a Garritan Forum and we want to focus on our user's music. We also ask that if you critique other people's work you do so in a constructive and respectful manner.

    Enjoy the music!

    Gary Garritan


    There is a current thread in the listening room that has a debate on what is allowed and what should not be allowed to be posted in the listening room. The following is my beliefs and I ask for yours as well.

    Above is what Gary has written as a welcome and is the only guide I have seen that portrays Gary's wishes. To me it is obvious that a piece that does not use any GPO in it should not be posted in the Listening room. Some people think that a piece should use mostly GPO while others say as long as the piece says what instuments are used, then the piece is OK.

    When I first joined here I had JABB and posted only pieces using that great library. Most of my works were done in full orchestration (thru Sib 4 without GPO) so I was unable to post them. I still have a number of pieces from that time that I have never redone thru GPO and wish I could post them, but I don't like to redo pieces if I can help it. I'd rather spend my time composing new works.

    I upgraded to Sib 5 and purchased the Full GPO partly just to be allowed to post my music on this site. Up until this summer, most all of my posted works featured nothing but GPO and JABB and then I decided to purchase a few more libraries so as to spread my horizons.

    In the works I post now (except for small ensembles) these other libraries are the backbone of the pieces. These other libraries are full of inherent reverb and I use GPO/JABB to tone those libraries down. Most every instrument in those libraries is doubled thru GPO or JABB and I love the results. Whenever one of my works uses a solo violin or Oboe, that lead is always a GPO instrument. I have more control of how I want the sound to be heard by using GPO.

    From what I read of Gary's welcome note, I am allowed to post music like this. When Gary had the open Phone line last year I discussed this very topic with him and he basically said that we as composers should always be looking to expand our horizons and if I remember correctly, he said he saw no reason why I should not post my music as long as some of the instrumentation was one of his products.

    It takes a certain skill to produce a strictly GPO piece and have it sound perfect and I marvel at those that possess that skill. With the right plug-ins and the right amount of dedication in a piece, some guys here can make GPO sound as good or as better than those $1000 dollar libraries.

    I have found a way that works for me and love posting my music done the way I do it. I sometimes wonder though if some people here refuse to comment on some of my works just because they think I have crossed a line somewhere. I totally understand that position and sometimes I comtemplate the same question myself.

    To me, Gary's welcome is straight forward and needs no deciphering of what he means, but apparently to some, what I do may not be right.

    When I post a piece I say that the piece uses GPO, JABB and other libraries. I figure why give free advertising to other products. I do however name the libraries further down in the thread if asked what libraries I use. I am a member of many other sites as well and list GPO as one of the libraries I use in composing. I have even convinced others to purchase GPO and JABB. I firmly believe that there is no better product out there for the price.

    I think that the discussion room is the place for this debate as compared to a thread in the Listening Room that many will not see.

    I am very curious as to other's positions on this subject.

    Sorry for the long post and hopefully some of you got thru to the end to read the final question.

    Ron

    BTW Even though I am a member of many other sites, this one is by far my favorite and is the site I call home.
    Ron
    "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

    http://composersforum.ning.com/profile/RonaldFerguson

  2. #2
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
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    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    That's pretty much exactly the way i interpreted it...

    that it is for works that use Garritan Libraries, not just for works that use only Garritan libraries, but both... with Garritan Libraries AND with only Garritan Libraries.

    Can't effectively use the listening room right now, can't wait until i get rid of this dial up and get real internet.

  3. #3

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    Hi, Ron

    Very good idea to continue that Listening Room discussion over here to the more general chat area. If people have more on their mind about this topic, this is the perfect thread for it, and the more appropriate venue.

    In the thread you're talking about over in the LR, I posted the same quote from Gary - what he says about the guidelines in his "sticky" post there. He points out the logic of the idea for the LR to be a place where Garritan users can share music created with Garritan instruments.

    He's very lenient in simply asking that "some instruments" from his software be used. He could have said that pieces posted needed to consist of 90% + Garritan, or he could have said they should use his instruments exclusively. If he would have, it would have made total sense, and only a bozo would want to argue with him about it.

    Maybe he'd like to update his sticky post, maybe not.

    But things usually have been going pretty smoothly there in the LR. Many of the regulars, me included, have posted pieces that have some things from other libraries added. When I do that, it's because I need an instrument not in any of the current Garritan Libraries - like when I posted "Dorian" tracks which needed a Soprano Recorder.

    It's no handicap to me to use Garritan Libraries - that's what I have, and it doesn't interest me to add more instruments, ESPEcially if they're "instant gratification" Libraries that have the reverb recorded with the samples--YIKES!

    Layering instruments from other libraries like you've taken to doing seems like it should be perfectly acceptable--Mr. G himself invited you to post more music even when it uses fewer of his instruments.

    Part of what youre asking is if some people have avoided replying to your posts because they may be annoyed at how many other libraries you use. I suppose that may be the case. If they choose to have an issue with that even when Gary doesn't, of course they can do that. But it'd be a pretty silly reason to not listen to what you're up to.

    However, it's possible that you're being sensitive about something that actually isn't bothering other people so much. Even pieces that use 100% Garritan can slip off the LR front page quickly. And that's because participation isn't really of a Titanic level. There are people who post music who seldom respond to other people's music, and that's just the way it's always been. And it's amazing how many times a piece will be listened to in proportion to how many people take the time to stop and type a reply. The percentage is something like 10 respones out of 100 hits. I think perhaps some people are just shy about putting their respones into words, and then others are just in too big of a rush to respond.

    Interesting side note on that - at Box now, when someone downloads a file, an auto email is sent to the user to alert them to that. I've had a number of things posted in the LR which were downloaded by people who never posted a reply. That's just the way things go. One person said they don't respond to my posts because they only like gentle pastoral pieces--OK, if they want to limit what they want to leave feedback on, that's their privilege.

    To your main point - your quote from Gary says it all. Why anyone should get worked up about Anything posted is really something I can't quite get. I've pointed people in the direction of the guidelines when it seems they haven't seen the rules, but then I leave it to them. I'm not a Forum cop and wouldn't want to be one.

    Maybe I'm getting to an age where Live and Let Live is more important to me than hassling about trivia. We have a great thing going with this Forum. Most of the time everything goes well. When it doesn't, Gary can make choices to deal with things he feels needs correction, and he does so.

    And so on.

    Thanks for the thoughtful post, Ron You spent so much time writing it, I figured you deserved a looooooooooong answer.

    Randy

  4. #4

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    Quote Originally Posted by Leaf View Post
    ...it is for works that use Garritan Libraries, not just for works that use only Garritan libraries, but both... with Garritan Libraries AND with only Garritan Libraries...
    Hi "Leaf"---I don't understand what I quoted from you. Was it a typo? It's the same thing twice.

    Randy

  5. #5
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
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    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hi "Leaf"---I don't understand what I quoted from you. Was it a typo? It's the same thing twice.

    Randy
    You are correct my friend, it's redundant.

    Unfortunately, writing is not my strong suit, but I'm working on it.

  6. #6

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    I own TWO GPO libraries, TWO JABB libraries, and the Stradivari and Gofriller libraries. I have also purchased Garritan libraries as gifts for friends. I am a faithful and grateful Garritan-product owner. I also own about a half dozen other libraries produced by other companies. I like them all. I use them all. And to be clear, I use them all in combination with each other.

    Throughout the past year, I've posted 4, maybe 5 compositions that contain a combination of instrumental libraries with Garritan products being the predominate ones. What satisfies my modest ears are the combination of the libraries used in my very modest compositions.

    Here is what Mr. Garritan wrote on August 12, 2005. It is found still "stickyed" on the top of The Listening Room forum:

    Welcome to the Listening Room!

    Here you can share your music, receive constructive criticism, collaborate and enjoy great music made by other members.

    This section is for Garritan library users helping other Garritan library users. We ask that if you post music here that at it uses some of the sounds of our libraries. This makes sense since it is a Garritan Forum and we want to focus on our user's music. We also ask that if you critique other people's work you do so in a constructive and respectful manner.

    Enjoy the music!

    Gary Garritan
    Yes. Mr. Garritan makes his request very clear. "We Ask that if you post music here that it uses some of the sounds of our libraries."

    . . . some of the sounds . . ..

    He also asks that critiques be "constructive and respectful" as they should be.

    Now. . . I use about 75 to 80% instruments from Garritan libraries, but not 100%. I doubt very much that, in the future, I'll be posting compositions utilizing 100% Garritan libraries unless the rules of the forum changes (or if he specifically requests so for future Christmas albums or future compositional competitions, etc.) When or IF I get the time to write music, I write music to write music, not JUST to utilize any one instrumental library. It just so happens that Garritan products sound GREAT which is why I use them 75 to 80% of the time. Heck, they sound GREAT all by them selves! But I especially love the sound of them in combination with the other libraries that I own.

    Cheers!

    Ted

    P. S. . . If you're wondering why I'm posting to this particular thread at this time in life, it's because I'm trying to get my mind off other things in life that are causing some stress. Family members with health-related problems type of stress. Lots of "abnormal findings" with lots of unanswered questions. Hopefully questions will be answered within the next several days. . . .

    Right now. . . I NEED to say out loud that I LOVE Garritan products whether used by themselves or used with other instrumental libraries. But my mind is screaming "I hope my mom doesn't have cancer. . . I hope my mom doesn't have cancer. . . I hope my mom doesn't have cancer. . . "

    UGH!

    Ted
    Music and humor are healthy for the soul.

  7. #7

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    When I made my response in the listening room, it is not because I "detected" a sound from a non-Garritan library, it is because the Garritan instruments that the original poster (OP) listed as using were not heard AT ALL!

    When someone says "Oh, I blended the GPO strings with The East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Platinum Hollywood Strings Gold library" that doesn't sit well with me.

    Sorry, but all of GPO's strings have heavy vibrato. When a person uses another library's strings that have no vibrato at all (which is all I heard), and blends GPO Strings, you are going to hear vibrato in the strings..... UNLESS,
    you turn the GPO strings down so far that you can't hear them, it totally defeats the point of listing the specific GPO, or Garritan instruments that were supposedly used.

    Some of the Christmas songs that I have done in the past use Garritan Orchestral Strings (GOS), and none of the GPO strings were used. I always make it known that GOS was used in a particular recording, and I list the other libraries like JABB and Steinway piano from JABB etc.

    I never want anyone to hear strings in one of my "Garritan renderings" and think something like, "I just don't know what he does to make the strings sound like that, I can't make my GPO strings sound like that."

    Here is another way to look at this.... and from the opposite end.

    How dishonest and misleading is it to post a piece of music where not even one Garritan instrument can be heard AND,.... NOT give credit to the library developer who's sounds are being heard? It is no secret that perhaps the weakest link in GPO is the brass instruments, and the fact that there are no string articulations without vibrato,.... section or solo, with the exception of the open strings, (not fingered). All of the folks on the Garritan team know this, and the new GPO is going to be stunningly better.

    It's all about music, and not what libraries were used, INCORRECT!

    It is not possible to listen to Garritan samples in the Garritan Listening Room (GLR) without hearing music... well maybe sometimes... IT is all about music using Garritan samples.

    It is expected, that when someone clicks on a link to download or listen to a piece of music in the GLR, that it is made with primarily Garritan sounds. Even if someone posts a full "LIVE" orchestra recording, and says, "I added GPO's timpani to this real recording because the timpanist was sick and couldn't make the concert, I think it turned out pretty realistic, what do you guys think?" THEN, we all know what's what, and we can hone in and listen to how well the GPO timpani's fit the piece, or how well they were played.

    Imagine if someone posted a piece of music in the GLR created exclusivley with VSL samples, and we read everyone's praise about how awesome the recording was, and not one of us was brave enough to break up the party and reveal... "guys, this isn't GPO".

    I feel a great sadness when I raise the question of what WAS used? In fact, in that topic, I was not the first one to recognize, and mention that a list of instruments/libraries should be made known.

    I'm rambling.
    Gary makes it very clear, and he has not changed his outlook on his post/s to my knowledge. He invites his customers to use other libraries ,,, yes, ones made by other developers, that's right, his competition. Most sample developer's products contain amazing strengths, and Gary encourages us to expand our "color pallette" as he once told me. I feel that Gary is being totally honest when he says that.

    We just need to understand, that if no Garritan sounds can be heard in a recording, then it clearly DOES NOT belong in the Northern Sounds Garritan Listening Room. And, it is always possible that someone will post a "midi mockup" with samples from another developer, and unintentionally but genuinely post it without knowledge of these guidelines.

    I am done venting.

    I should also mention that I did give credit to the original poster for his good writing.
    And I meant that too.

    Sincerely everyone
    Dan

  8. #8

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    most of my music uses anywhere from 25% to 100% garritan. usually when i choose to use a different library it is because a) GPO strings all have heavy vibrato (which Dan pointed out), and it is literally impossible to get that tight smooth sound with them or b) i need a synth sound.

    there are some pieces that i have written that didn't use any garritan stuff or maybe just a snare drum that i absolutely loved, but didn't share them here because I know what this room is for.

    I agree with Dan about the post that started this entire thing, because after I heard it I didn't recognize any of those sounds as anything garritan - they all sound EWQL to me. I simply chose not to post anything, but it really pissed me off and I was glad that Dan did say something.

    The poster responded by saying that the sounds were blended, but I couldn't for the life of me hear it and I'd like to hear a version with just GPO and one where it was stripped dry. I will take their word for it, and if true then it doesn't bother me at all but if not it doesn't have a place here.

    SOOOOOOOOO.... I imagine that it is fine to post anything that features some garritan stuff, just let us know beforehand if it isn't obvious.

    my $0.02.
    -Keith Fuller

    http://keithfullermusic.com
    ---
    iMac Quad i7 * MacBook Pro * Logic Studio 9 * WD 320GB & 1TB Externals@7,200RPM * Presonus Firebox * M-Audio Axiom 25 & Keystation 61 * Rode NT1-A * Epiphone Hollowbody * Fender Amp * KRK Rokit 8's

  9. #9

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    ---Well, Dan, that rather takes the shine off the apology you made in The Listening Room. Apparently it was important for you to retract and re-vent. OK.

    I'd rather take people for their word when they say they've used Gary's Libraries in their posted pieces. The vast majority of the time, I rather think people are truthful.

    As I said earlier, I'm not very interested in being a Forum Cop. I guess a few people like to spend their time and energy that way.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: The Listening Room and other libraries

    Keith - I'm sorry to see you're also wasting your time being "pissed off" by a new poster who I really think was simply wanting to share his music.

    "...it is literally impossible to get that tight smooth sound with them..." So, you're complaining about people not using Garritan sounds, but in the same post you're making a blanket statement critical of GPO which is patently unsound. I see. Complicated.

    Randy

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