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Topic: Renaming KP2 Outputs

  1. #1

    Renaming KP2 Outputs

    (Cross-posted on Sonar Forum)

    I'm working on my first really big GPO project since picking it up at the Christmas Sale. So far everything has been only a few instruments.

    My question is this - is there a way to rename the KP2 audio output channels in Sonar, or am I stuck with a "main", 2 "st.", 4 "Aux" and a mess of "unassigned". To make matters worse, the "aux" outputs listed in Sonar do not seem to coincide with the Aux Sends from within KP2.

    I know how to rename them in KP (thanks DPDan), but I can't figure out how to make the names the same in Sonar. In fact, when I just add ouputs, the default names don't match up with what's in Sonar.

    So, is there a way to rename these? (Randy, if you have an answer for this one, consider us EVEN!)

  2. #2
    Senior Member bigears's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Central Illinois

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    Hi Rob, Sorry I don't have an answer for you, but are you familiar with the Scott Garrigus "Sonar Power" books? You might want to check out his website at www.digifreq.com. There is a section for tips, advice, and info and perhaps somewhere to post a question as well. Good luck and be sure and share the answer with us, John

  3. #3

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    HEY, Rob - Let's see if I can make us "even."

    What you're talking about hasn't ever been an issue with me - not one I've stopped to think about. But I admit that the audio tracks that pop up in Sonar don't automatically correspond with however you've named them inside of KP2.

    When I want to keep the tracks straight in Sonar, so I know what's what, it's always been the easy matter of naming them after whatever instrument is in each KP2 channel for a given project.

    Click the track name in Sonar so it's all highlighted, type in the name of the instrument - There it is. I don't want the channel name used in KP2 - I want to see what instrument is connected to what audio channel, right? So that's how I re-name them.

    Like I said, it's not automatic, but only takes a second to click and type in the name of the right instrument for each track.

    That good enough for you? Or were you hoping for something more automatic? - But, as indicated above, the only helpful thing, I think, is to have the channels named for the instrument - and there's no way Sonar would know what instrument you have in each slot. And just having those Sonar track named "1" "2" etc. wouldn't be too helpful.

    But - you're certainly not stuck with the default track names from KP2.


  4. #4

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    I must not have asked this question very well, because I got the same answer over on the Sonar Forum. Let's have another shot at it:

    When you insert a new audio track in Sonar, you have to choose the source, or input, of the audio signal. If you're recording something acoustic, you choose your audio interface in the input selection pull-down. If you're using a VST, like GPO, you select one of the audio outputs from that synth from the same pull-down (obviously the synth needs already be in the synth rack for the outputs to appear on this list.)

    My issue is that the synth audio outputs on this pull-down list in each audio channel don't match the names of the audio channels in KP2. I'm wondering if there is a way to change the names of the synth channel outputs that show up in this channel pull-down menu from "st.1", "aux1.", "unassigned1", etc.

    If it's still unclear, I'll try to grab some screenshots when I'm home tonight.


  5. #5

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    Oh rats, and here I was thinking I'd nailed the answer for you, Rob.

    Right--you asked about renaming output channels--I thought you had to be talking about the names of the tracks as they appear in the Track or Console views.

    Hmmm, well, I never have to do what you're talking about, not when dealing with GPO or any other soft synth. It's so easy when you're inserting a soft synth in a project to ask for All Audio Outputs - all those tracks are automatically inserted in the project, with no need to get in and direct their signals. After that, I re-name them according to what instrument each track is carrying, as outlined in my last post.

    The only time I need to set up a track's output the way you're talking about is if I'm using an outside source, like my microphone through an external sound card.

    --Why aren't you just asking for all the synth tracks to be set up automatically for you? If you're not using them all--just select the unused tracks and delete them.

    EDIT - addition: No need for the screen shot, I know exactly what you're talking about.

    Randy--TRYing to make us even!

  6. #6

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    Well, Rob - I'm replying again before you've had a chance to, but I want to add that if you're talking about the MIDI tracks--I don't think you are though, those are a simple matter since you just choose KP2 and the appropriate MIDI channel.

    Hope to hear from you again on this. I want to FIX it for you.


  7. #7

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    Hi, Randy, thanks for all your help in this. I do have to say, however, that I don't know that anything's broken, so much. I'm really just trying to determine if the behavior I'm seeing is a WAD or something I can change/customize.

    Anyway, last night quickly spun out of control on the busy scale, but I think tonight I can steal away and grab a few screen shots so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

    In the meantime - I had KP2 create audio tracks for all the outputs once and was deluged with audio tracks. It's been long enough that I don't remember exactly how many.

    When you do that, does Sonar create stereo tracks or mono tracks for the L and R of each stereo output? And, how do you keep track of which instrument is being sent with which output? In KP2 you have to tell each instrument which output it is going to, and in Sonar you have to tell each audio track where it is getting audio from. That's the crux of my confusion - keeping those two variables straight.

    Anyway, I'll try and post this evening with what I'm looking at.

    Thanks again, Rob

  8. #8

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    oh my - Well, hello, Rob - This is an interesting case of one person feeling fine with the way some software works, and another finding it clumsy and wishing it could be different. I unhesitatingly can tell you this is a "Wad." I really don't think there's anything to change.

    "...I think tonight I can steal away and grab a few screen shots so you can see exactly what I'm talking about..."

    That's OK, it isn't necessary. I know exactly what you're talking about. You're talking about the long list of possibilities for outputs you get when you hand insert an audio track and want to direct it properly.

    I started a new project today, and thought of this thread as I went about settings things up and digging in. You know how you have an established work flow and it can be difficult to think it through in slow motion, trying to describe how you do what you do?

    Let me respond more while I still have Sonar and my new project open on the music computer - in conjunction with your new reply:

    "...I had KP2 create audio tracks for all the outputs once and was deluged with audio tracks..."

    OK--I don't understand any other way to work, because without asking for the tracks to be automatically created while inserting KP2, then there would be all that extra work of inserting the audio tracks, then one-by-one directing their outputs. I don't understand why you don't want it to be automated? Because you were "deluged" with tracks?----It only makes as many tracks which are in KP2. I always work with stereo tracks, and KP2 has 16 stereo channels - so Sonar inserts 16 audio channels automatically directed to the proper slots in KP2. Done in an instant with no mistakes.

    And that goes into your next question:

    "...When you do that, does Sonar create stereo tracks or mono tracks for the L and R of each stereo output?..."

    In the pop-up for inserting a soft synth, you have the choice of having mono or stereo tracks. I never work with mono, so keep it set to creating stereo tracks. But you could ask for mono tracks--then you'd have 32.

    "...how do you keep track of which instrument is being sent with which output? In KP2 you have to tell each instrument which output it is going to, and in Sonar you have to tell each audio track where it is getting audio from. That's the crux of my confusion - keeping those two variables straight..."

    This is something I realized as I started this project today. I almost always just start with one instrument in KP2. Piano, most typically. So, insert Piano. It's on track One, MIDI channel One. I start to work--There's no question where it's coming out - It's in the previously automatically inserted soft synth audio track for channel one in KP2.

    When I'm ready to move on to the next instrument, I pop open KP2, insert the next instrument--repeat the above.

    I'll have the sketched in MIDI tracks for all the instruments at some point, and as I worked, I stopped to type in the name of the instruments on the audio tracks rather than keeping "KontaktPlayer2 1 Kt. 1:Stereo" - etc. in their header.

    So that's one reason this all works with less hassle for me - It's extremely rare for me to start a project by inserting all my instruments at once. I don't see the point in doing that, since you can only work on the MIDI of one track at a time.

    BUT I always have a steno pad next to me, and I'm scribbling short notes as I work on a project - If I have inserted several instruments at once, I jot down "Piano 1" "Flute 2"- whatever. Then I can keep things straight when I re-name the audio tracks.

    TRY THIS THOUGH - You can have your open KP2 GUI open and moved to one side while you open up the header of a track for an easy visual reference. Maybe that would help you out.

    I understand, however, that you're saying that you seem to prefer inserting one audio track at a time and setting the whole thing up by hand, even though all that could be done in a second for you. So when you insert an audio track, you need to choose what it's input is - you choose KP2 in the menu, and then your huge list appears.

    But I checked that just now--I have hardly ever seen that since I don't set things up this way, as is clear by now --and the long menu that comes up has three listings for each channel - "Kt. 1:Left (mono), Kt.1:Right (mono) and Kt.1: Stereo"---and the same for all 16 channels.

    That's straight forward enough - choose what I want--Because the numbers in that menu are exactly as I labeled the channels in KP2 long ago. I have them simply called "1" through "16."

    Summarizing - I believe this system is less hassle for me primarily because I only insert one instrument at a time. There's never any confusion about what track its audio is coming out of. When I go ahead and insert a group of instruments at once, that's the sort of thing that goes on my trusty steno pad.

    And on the very rare occasion when I need to insert another audio track to accomodate a KP2 channel - the long menu in the Input selector matches the same names I have for channels in KP2. - Note - you know you need to change KP2's channel names with the "Config" button, and not just by typing in the text box at the top of each channel strip, right?

    Advice - Ask for All Audio Tracks when you insert KP2. It'll make your life much easier.

    And - what we have here is definitely a WAD.

    NOW have I paid you back???


  9. #9

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    Okay, Randy, I think I see how you do things. You insert one instance of KP2 for each 16 instruments that you want and drop all 16 audio tracks in at once. Then, as you insert instruments, you add a MIDI track and a KP2 instrument at the same time. The instrument in KP2 automatically selects the next available output, and you scroll down to the next audio track in Sonar and rename it to the instrument that you just added.

    I can definitely see the value in doing things that way.

    Did you have to do someting in KP2 to get the instruments to automatically assign to the next of all 16 outputs? When I insert KP2 I only get 3 stereo outputs and the surround bus. To get anything else I have to manually add it within KP2.

    (I think in DPDan's post he mentioned a way to make the additional outputs sticky - I'll have to go revisit that post).

    Is each instance of KP2 limited to 16 MIDI channels? If so, then there would never be a reason to use more that 16 separate outputs, would there?

    I've gravitated towards mono tracks for most of the instruments because it's my understanding that: a)they are mono samples anyway and, b)you get better panning results with mono tracks. That being said, I guess it would be just as easy (maybe easier) to automatically set up 16 stereo tracks and interleave the ones you want mono (unless there are system resource issues with stereo vs. mono tracks - my system is pretty ancient by contemporary vst standards). I know that Dan, in his encyclopeadic post, mentioned that he sets up mono sends for all of the mono instruments (pretty much everything except piano, maybe drum set if he uses those).

    Lastly, for those following this conversation who may still not completely know what we are talking about, here is a screen shot that I made last night before I read your last post...


    Whoops, one more last thing - when I did a trial insertion of KP2 last night and had it drop all the stereo tracks in automatically, I got 26 tracks, not 16. Not sure where the rest came from, but I know there were 5 or so labelled: "surr. 5.1" - just like in the screen shot.

    Thanks, Randy, you've given me a lot of food for thought concerning my workflow.

  10. #10
    Senior Member bigears's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Central Illinois

    Re: Renaming KP2 Outputs

    Hi Rob and Randy,
    I'm pretty sure once you have set up your channels in the KP2 per DPDans's scenario, you will then be able to use them as mono or stereo outputs to Sonar, where you can use the panning to place the instrument where you wish. I think what Dan was getting at was utilizing to the maximum the outputs in KP2 and not wasting a stereo output when using a mono sample.
    Once you have your outputs set up and renamed, you have to click on "make default". John
    Here's a link to his page on setting up the KontaktPlayer outputs:

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