• Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Topic: Section building flutes

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Section building flutes

    Hi, all --

    I've just been putting together part of the song for the GPO Christmas CD that I requested to do. I've been working on the flute section and am having a little difficulty.

    What I've been trying to do is build a section, which has been suggested to me. Now, I've done this with the strings without any trouble, but now I'm trying to blend the Alto Flute Player 3 and Flute Solo V and am having some trouble when I initiate VAR 1 in the Kontakt Player. With the string sections, using this makes it sound more like genuine musicians playing their parts, but with the flutes, I'm hearing a lot of transient phase shifting. Of course, I could just ditch the VAR 1 idea, but I really like what it does with the strings.

    Does anyone have any suggestions or advice?
    Thanks,
    Julie.

  2. #2

    Re: Section building flutes

    Hi, Julie

    It sounds like you are aware that when building any ensembles, you need to make sure you're not using the Player instruments which are derived from the same samples as lead instruments. You get total phasing when you do that, since the frequencies are beating at the same time.

    But the two Flutes you are using shouldn't be conflicting.

    However - You said, "...am having some trouble when I initiate VAR 1 in the Kontakt Player..." and I'm pretty sure this is the source of your problem.

    The controls in the KP2 itself are meant for auditioning. That isn't how you work their controls into your project. You need data controlling those knobs to be inside your project file.

    So, if you just turn up the Var 1 knob and leave it--You'll have a non-stop slightly out of tune effect, and that could be what you're calling "phasing." But that isn't how Var 1 and Var 2 are meant to be used.

    They are to be used very sparingly through MIDI control. Use CC22 for Var 1 and CC23 for Var 2. A programmable wheel can add those controls in TINY amounts here and there throughout a project, and not at one static level. The most logical place to use these tuning variation controls is on fast passages which live musicians will play the most inaccurately. Swoop a little bit of Var 1 and/or 2 in at those places, and it adds a lot of realism. Then, they can also be sprinkled a bit randomly throughout a project--Always at very low levels, and definitely only sparingly.

    Like any MIDI controllers, these can be drawn in if you need to do that. Just trust me that the levels should be very low, a value of 10 will be quite noticeable, for instance.

    Randy B.

  3. #3

    Re: Section building flutes

    Hi, Julie...

    Over & above what Randy recommended, please ensure that the instruments are not attacking at the exact same time.
    I don't think you specified how you were entering the music, but attacks that are (near-) coincident can produce phasing issues.

    Also, in a section setting I will tune one player in the section 2 or 3 cents sharp and another player 2 or 3 cents flat. That's easy to do in the K2 player.

    It might be helpful to get some more info as to how you are entering the music. What software? What method of entry? Which library? Which player?

    Snor
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

  4. #4

    Re: Section building flutes

    Hi, Randy B. Thanks again for helping me out here --

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hi, Julie

    It sounds like you are aware that when building any ensembles, you need to make sure you're not using the Player instruments which are derived from the same samples as lead instruments. You get total phasing when you do that, since the frequencies are beating at the same time.
    Actually, no I wasn't aware of that, thanks for mentioning it.



    ...However - You said, "...am having some trouble when I initiate VAR 1 in the Kontakt Player..." and I'm pretty sure this is the source of your problem.

    The controls in the KP2 itself are meant for auditioning. That isn't how you work their controls into your project. You need data controlling those knobs to be inside your project file.

    So, if you just turn up the Var 1 knob and leave it--You'll have a non-stop slightly out of tune effect, and that could be what you're calling "phasing." But that isn't how Var 1 and Var 2 are meant to be used.
    Argh okay, that makes sense. I guess it's just easier to here the phasing in the flutes (or maybe winds in general) than the strings?

    They are to be used very sparingly through MIDI control. Use CC22 for Var 1 and CC23 for Var 2. A programmable wheel can add those controls in TINY amounts here and there throughout a project, and not at one static level.
    Okay, I have to ask -- what is a programmable wheel? Or how do I program one? It would be like reprograming the mod-wheel to have CC22 or CC23 instead of volume/timbre?

    The most logical place to use these tuning variation controls is on fast passages which live musicians will play the most inaccurately. Swoop a little bit of Var 1 and/or 2 in at those places, and it adds a lot of realism. Then, they can also be sprinkled a bit randomly throughout a project--Always at very low levels, and definitely only sparingly.
    This makes sense. However, my line of thought was that one of the several components of an orchestra sounding like a section playing that same thing, is that it would be impossible for everyone to be completely in tune with one another for a variety of reasons.

    Thanks again for the help!

  5. #5

    Re: Section building flutes

    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax View Post
    Hi, Julie...

    Over & above what Randy recommended, please ensure that the instruments are not attacking at the exact same time.
    Yes, I did make sure they weren't attacking at the same time.

    Also, in a section setting I will tune one player in the section 2 or 3 cents sharp and another player 2 or 3 cents flat. That's easy to do in the K2 player.
    That's a cool idea, thanks.

    It might be helpful to get some more info as to how you are entering the music. What software? What method of entry? Which library? Which player?

    Snor
    I'm using GarageBand '08, playing the parts on my keyboard and editing afterwards in the piano roll thing. I am using GPO with the KP2.
    Thanks for the suggestions

  6. #6

    Re: Section building flutes

    Glad this thread has been helpful, Julie.

    Do you have a hard copy of the GPO manual? Lots of helpful info in it. It explains, for instance, how you shouldn't use the "Players" which are derived from the soloists. But the logic is very easy -- "Player 1" of any instrument is a tweaked version of the same samples used for the soloist of the same instrument labeled as One.

    Going through your reply - -No, it actually isn't easier to hear phasing in the Flutes than Strings, I don't think, Strings can get really sweepy-phasey if you layer them wrong. - Interesting, by the way, these problems with "phasing" you're having. With using the Variation controls, randomizing the off-set of notes in MIDI file copies, avoiding using the same samples, and I've never had phasing happen in my files. Just be sure to do it All, and the issue really shouldn't exist.

    Programmable wheel - You answered your own question. Yes, I'm talking about the Mod Wheel which is programmable on most synths. You set it for whatever MIDI controller you want - volume, modulation, expression (cc11), cc20 for portamento - Making multiple passes in your project, you can play any MIDI controller in real time that way.

    And you do know that any controller can also be drawn in from scratch in the Piano Roll View - one doesn't have to use a keyboard - though the keyboard yields the most organic results.

    Glad you see that PLaying Var 1 and 2 is the way to do it. Much better than a set-and-forget approach, and I feel it's better than shifting the tuning by a few cents, because that keeps an instrument permanently offkey. It's intersting that even though in a live band/orchestra, you're bound to hear instruments slightly out of tune with each other, and that becomes part of the live sound - if you try to recreate that too literally in a MIDI project, it can sound pretty bad pretty quickly. Getting things as off as in a live band can end up just sounding like sloppy work, or the simulation of a drunk orchestra! People like to hear enough realism in a recording so that they can enjoy it without thinking it sounds artificial, but they do expect it to be as slick and in tune as in professional recordings. You have to be careful.

    So use the Var 1 and 2 wherever it seems to sound good to you. It can definitely be a somewhat randomly applied thing, but as I said earlier, it's fast passages where live musicians are the most different in their playing. That's an example of the good advice found in the GPO manual.

    Keep having fun!

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Section building flutes

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post

    Do you have a hard copy of the GPO manual? Lots of helpful info in it. It explains, for instance, how you shouldn't use the "Players" which are derived from the soloists. But the logic is very easy -- "Player 1" of any instrument is a tweaked version of the same samples used for the soloist of the same instrument labeled as One.
    I certainly do! Though I'm not the most patient person in the world and usually skip the manual for most things and look up my problems as I run into them. This of course is usually more time-consuming and thus defeats the purpose of me being impatient. Some habits are hard to break, though heh.

    Going through your reply - -No, it actually isn't easier to hear phasing in the Flutes than Strings, I don't think, Strings can get really sweepy-phasey if you layer them wrong. - Interesting, by the way, these problems with "phasing" you're having. With using the Variation controls, randomizing the off-set of notes in MIDI file copies, avoiding using the same samples, and I've never had phasing happen in my files. Just be sure to do it All, and the issue really shouldn't exist.
    Hmm maybe I'm just hearing things.

    Programmable wheel - You answered your own question. Yes, I'm talking about the Mod Wheel which is programmable on most synths. You set it for whatever MIDI controller you want - volume, modulation, expression (cc11), cc20 for portamento - Making multiple passes in your project, you can play any MIDI controller in real time that way.

    And you do know that any controller can also be drawn in from scratch in the Piano Roll View - one doesn't have to use a keyboard - though the keyboard yields the most organic results.
    Very nice! I will be tinkering with that pretty soon, methinks.

    Glad you see that PLaying Var 1 and 2 is the way to do it. Much better than a set-and-forget approach, and I feel it's better than shifting the tuning by a few cents, because that keeps an instrument permanently offkey. It's intersting that even though in a live band/orchestra, you're bound to hear instruments slightly out of tune with each other, and that becomes part of the live sound - if you try to recreate that too literally in a MIDI project, it can sound pretty bad pretty quickly. Getting things as off as in a live band can end up just sounding like sloppy work, or the simulation of a drunk orchestra! People like to hear enough realism in a recording so that they can enjoy it without thinking it sounds artificial, but they do expect it to be as slick and in tune as in professional recordings. You have to be careful.
    Right. Sparingly is the key. I do agree.

    So use the Var 1 and 2 wherever it seems to sound good to you. It can definitely be a somewhat randomly applied thing, but as I said earlier, it's fast passages where live musicians are the most different in their playing. That's an example of the good advice found in the GPO manual.

    Keep having fun!

    Randy
    Sounds good! Maybe I should break out the manual and give it more than a look-over Thanks again for the ultra-helpful posts!

    Julie.

  8. #8

    Re: Section building flutes

    Glad there's stuff in my post that seems helpful, Julie. The manual is Definitely helpful, more than some manuals, because there are a number of things that are not done according to standard MIDI spec, and users have to know what those differences are.

    The rest is getting used to how building pieces is a multi-layered process, like building complex images in PhotoShop that can use hundreds of layers.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Randy

  9. #9

    Re: Section building flutes

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    So use the Var 1 and 2 wherever it seems to sound good to you. It can definitely be a somewhat randomly applied thing, but as I said earlier, it's fast passages where live musicians are the most different in their playing.
    I agree with Randy's comment.

    My general rule is to apply VAR1 and VAR2 that range in value from 2/t to 3/t, where t is the duration of the note in seconds. Hence, a quarter note at 60 BPM (duration = 1 sec.) gets a value of 2-3, an eighth note at 120 BPM (duration = 0.25 sec.) gets a value of 8-12, etc.

    That's just my personal preference, but it might give you a starting point for the VAR1 and VAR2 values you want to use.
    Best Regards,
    Ernie

  10. #10

    Re: Section building flutes

    --!!--Interesting, Ernie. A mathematical formula for adding tonal variety. Sounds pretty good - Just feeling it out trusting my ear is all I do. But then I tend to shudder whenever numbers come up.

    Randy

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •