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Topic: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

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  1. #1

    PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Again a very good morning,

    Maybe you've read my other message about my findings using Sonar 8 and the rest of the new things I recently purchased. Then you know that I struggle a lot with PerfectSpaces - in Sonar 5, I never noticed this, didn't have to worry about.

    In the score, the cello parts, some notes are played CC#1 driven and some notes are played pure Velocity driven - those are when using keyswitches D1, D#1, E1, F1. Or their counterparts as separate instruments. Only when it comes to a certain degree of "aggressiveness" I move the notes involved from the "main-track-cello KS" to a separate track: Short-bows KS or Short Bows KS AG.

    This setup leads to setting in Sonar a send-effect to PerfectSpaces with a certain amount of "going to that effect". This works fine, but not for the velocity driven notes (Vel Vol). For those the amount is far too high and leads to an ugly echo, while the sustained notes just have a neat reverb, dying out smoothly.

    The notes on the Short Bows track, can't have the same amount going to that Send effect as the sustained notes, again because of that echo. So lowering that until no echo is heard anymore, can be the solution. There is a drawback. Suddenly those notes sound as if "right in the face". This is one rule of reverbs - dry/wet - when the amount of reverbed info is very small, it give the impression as if that instrument is right in front of you.

    To give you any figures. My celli info is sent to PerfectSpace - amount -5 on the knob, the delay in PerfectSpace is set to 0,020, dry not activated, wet +3.0. For AG/Pizzicato I have to set the Send to PerfectSpace to -13, to avoid echoing. I am puzzled about the why's.

    Why do I have to do that? Why is a short note - sustain - different from a aggressive staccato or pizzicato? To be sure that it not a question of perception, I played some CD's with pizzicati and never got the impression that those notes were right in my face. I reckon that there is only one mic placed above the celli-group and not two (one for sustain and one for the rest - that would be silly).

    Or..... and here it is finally, should I buy Altiverb. If so, do I have to set all those send-levels, delays, etc.... when I can place the instrument where it belongs in a certain given space (like the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam). I once had a demo of Altiverb, where I could place things in space. After all it didn't work because my system wasn't good enough (in the old days). I just want to make my life a bit easier and only concerning the dry/wet; other things will be established when I put my celli at the spot I had in mind. Is this silly thinking?

    Please help,

    Raymond

  2. #2

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    I don't know yet, Jon. Just let Altiverb rest for a while. In my search for a solution of this ugly echoing I tried other convolution plugs. As soon as I have to deal with the "real space" there is an echo, bouncing off the walls. I really have to lower the amount of info going into this plug to eliminate this effect.

    This doesn't happen with the let's say: straight forward reverb plugs.
    What is going on? Is it the material presented? Should I really set all those pizzicato-staccato-down bows, etc. on a special track? Having done this, I then have to cope with the "perception of instrument placement in space".
    As an experiment I set all delays to zero, but the echo was still there. I really have to lower the amount of info going to that send/reverb bus or lower the slider in Sonar...... (now I don't know it anymore).

    I am still experimenting, but my hopes for a solution aren't positive.

    Raymond

  3. #3

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Hi, Raymond - Some quick responses for now.

    You need to automate your reverb send levels. Maybe you're doing that, but if you turn the option on to record movements of the send dial, you can go over the pizz sections until you have the amount you prefer.

    BUT it sounds like most Any amount of this reverb you're using is sounding like too much - and from your post I would say it's because you're expecting one of the PerfectSpaces presets to be exactly the way you want. You need to design a custom setting appropriate for the project - choosing the size hall you want first, then changing the settings until you have the sound you want.

    First reflections must be set very high in the preset you're now trying. That's the first bounce-back of sound waves from the hall's walls. Turn that down.

    You asked why do short percussive sounds reveal the early reflections more than legato sounds? - The notes are shorter than the time it takes for the sound to bounce back. A snare drum, anything short and percussive would do the same thing. The legato passages are continuous, no discreet percussive elements to bounce off the walls so severely.

    Turn the first reflections down, also toy with the amount of delay in the preset -You don't want the reverb to start immediately or things will get muddy. A rule of thumb is to start trying the delay at around 9 milliseconds - Adjust until you like what you're hearing.

    Basically--even if you don't understand the purpose of a plugin's dials, start twiddling them, your ears will teach you what each knob controls.

    Randy

  4. #4

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Randy,PerfectSpace doesn't have a first reflections knob. So I can't set it to zero. Not having such a knob makes me assume that this argument isn't a part of the reverb mathematics in PerfectSpace.

    The rest of your reply is well understood, at least now I know why this happens. I don't know why it didn't happen in Sonar 5 with exactly the same settings. You listened to my symphony made with Sonar 5 and there it didn't occur. I did no alterations of any kind importing the project into Sonar 8 and there it was, that ugly echoing.

    And that still puzzles me.

    Anyway thank you for this lesson,

    Have a nice weekend, spring is really good here, today we had 20 degress celcius.... warm for the day of the year.

    Raymond

  5. #5

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Hi, Raymond. To eliminate the early reflections in a convolution reverb, I think you have to turn up the predelay. The other option would be to put a volume envelope on the reverb that jumps in after the early reflections.

    Not sure whether the predelay starts the reverb from after the beginning of the impulse, or just delays the impulse. If it works, it would be easier then the envelope, but that would definitely work.

    Personally, the early reflections on percussive instruments, esp. like piano, drive me absolutely crazy. Spoilt by too many movie soundtracks, I guess.

  6. #6

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Quote Originally Posted by raweber View Post
    Hi, Raymond. To eliminate the early reflections in a convolution reverb, I think you have to turn up the predelay. The other option would be to put a volume envelope on the reverb that jumps in after the early reflections.

    Not sure whether the predelay starts the reverb from after the beginning of the impulse, or just delays the impulse. If it works, it would be easier then the envelope, but that would definitely work.

    Personally, the early reflections on percussive instruments, esp. like piano, drive me absolutely crazy. Spoilt by too many movie soundtracks, I guess.

    I must thank you for the answer, but again I don't have the faintest idea you are talking about. PerfectSpaces only has a delay knob setting the timing when the reverb starts (also Offset, Length, Dry, Wet, Pan).

    So, I think I will add an envelope, let us see how this works out.

  7. #7

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    This thread got me curious about Perfect Spaces, and now I've watched two Cakewalk instructional videos posted at You Tube.

    This one may be of some help:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FATk4...eature=related

    Early in the vid there's a close shot of controls. And in this vid as well as the other one Cakewalk has posted about PerfectSpaces, they're showing that using envelope control inside the plugin is an essential part of using it. As usual with a plugin, you have a lot of control over it. You have a choice of latency settings - seems possible that you have that set too high so you're getting your big "echo" when the reverb unit is kicking in too late.

    Why there wasn't this echo problem in Sonar 5 is an unknown. I think PerfectSpaces was re-set to a default configuration, or your project was - Something happened to change the way it was working with your project when you opened it up in Sonar 8.

    It could be instructional to open your project again in Sonar 5, take a close look at all settings - and see if you can spot the differences in the reverb plugin, in the mixer, in everything.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Randy, as always you are "the most helpful guy on the Net". Before I saw your message, I did a survey on the Internet and in my books. Had a long walk to contemplate what I'd been reading. You never know what comes up when you have a long walk.... Beethoven made his Pastorale after this.... but I am not Beethoven (I like his hairdressing!!).

    So I went back to the drawing table and had some mathematics on the Concertgebouw(Amsterdam). Applied them to the delays, also made some calculations about the Pre-delay (time to build up the reflection) and voila... it worked out very good. I grouped instruments and listened to the effects of the reverb (all violins, all celli and double-basses, all horns, etc.) and I liked it.

    Compared those with a CD of Bruckner and went back to my DAW (sounds profound, isn't it?) Adjusted some settings and after three trials, I've got it. Not as good as DPDAN can make things - he is the ultimate master - but for an amateur (and dutchman!!) rather good. Nothing beats a real performance, true but I think I can work my way thru all four parts now (started with part 1).

    Now it has more depth, more discrete sounds, less muddy, better reverbs (not too much), and after having saved everything applicable to other parts. Not automatically of course, ears are the best judges.

    Thank you for your advices - and of course other repliers as well - have a nice weekend, greetings,

  9. #9

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Raymond - glad to hear that you've found success. I haven't spent too much time with PrefectSpace, yet. I only just recently switched over from SIR which was my default Convolution reverb before I purchased Sonar 7 Producer. I loved SIR because it was so incredibly intuitive. I would still be using it except on a recent track it was generating some irritating high-frequency ringing (thick modern rock track with lots of cymbals). I switched over to PerfectSpace with the same IR and no more ringing.

    That being said, I will still probably default to SIR just because it is so easy to use, and only switch over to PerfectSpace when it falls short.

    Anyway, I was wondering about something else. You mentioned in your last post that you did some maths on the Concertgebouw. Is that the concert hall that supposedly has some of the best acoustics in the world? I listen regularly to a radio show on public radio here in the States called "Performance Today" which is entirely dedicated to recent live performances of classical music.

    The host regularly references a concert hall, possibly in Amsterdam (I don't remember), that could be Concertgebouw - hard to pick up just listening to the radio in the background.

    So, is this possibly the same Concertgebouw, and what do you mean that you had some mathematics on it?

    Thanks,

  10. #10

    Re: PerfectSpaces in Sonar - help!!

    Rob,

    I use SONAR too, and PerfectSpace is now my "go to" convo reverb (besides nebula). You should give it a go - it's easy to use and way more configurable than SIR (ver 1 anyway).

    Raymond has found his solution, but offset would be the same as predelay - or you could try different impulses *or* you could edit the Concertgebouw impulse (and save it with a different name) in any WAV editor, to take off some early reflections.

    rgds,

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