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Topic: SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

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  1. #1

    SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

    Hello folks,

    since I have been praised enough I am not presenting this first symphony again in the LR. The last couple of days I've been working on this project, struggling over all sorts of differences between Sonar5 and Sonar8 (see other messages).

    I think having found the solution for (with help from others);

    a. the amount of reverb;
    b. the behaviour of Short Bowing (KS = D1,E1,..);
    c. the behaviour of Pizzicato;
    d. better spreading of the instruments.

    I am still puzzled about the following things:

    a. using the Guarneri solo violin - part 3 -> that baroque-like part. Some notes aren't as clear as others, it is noticeable (sounds like wrong bowing technique of the soloist). I tried everything but could not find a solution for it (I listened to the older Sonar5 version and it is NOT there);

    b. all parts - during the making of this new version, I'd set the buffers and ASIO to a certain value, not having any hicks. So I exported the various parts with that same buffering (NOT Fastbounce) and I heard quite a lot of hicks and stuttering. How is that possible? I altered the buffer settings and it went away;

    c. in Sonar5 the final output went to a master bus where one could alter the Db output, to avoid clipping. In Sonar8 it is just a MONITOR bus and altering the Db-output doesn't change anything. So I had to introduce another destination bus right before going to that Monitor bus, where I could set the Db (but not indepedent from each other Right/Left). Is this a fact of Sonar8 producer or is it my new sound system EMU1616M that dictates this?

    During this whole process I listened to recorded (on my system) symphonies and looked at the image of the wave files. What I noticed from looking and listening was, that crescendos are much more dynamic than in my file. Is this common orchestra practice, to thicken the raise in volume (dynamics)?

    For those who are curious enough to listen to the new version, I altered some accents, altered the score at some phrases (in particular part 4-the first sequence - left out the trumpets), added some juice to the celli and double basses - follow this special link.

    Please don't comment on the composition, but rather help me to get it better sounding, what to improve, etc. My personal idea is that it sounds brighter, more profound, better spaced, not as pompous.

    Raymond

  2. #2
    Senior Member bigears's Avatar
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    Re: SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

    Hi Raymond, I have a few comments regarding some of your questions about Sonar8.
    Regarding item (b): The default that Sonar uses for bouncing tracks is the same size as the Mixing Latency value that you can set up when you go through the Audio Options. If your project(s) require a different bounce buffer, you can set that bounce buffers value in the AUD.INI file. A setting of 0 is the same size as the Mixing Latency value that you set in the Audio Options dialog. You can set the bounce buffer to a value from 0 - 350 to get the right size for bouncing on your system. Check out the Initialization File in the help section:
    Help>Help Topics>Initialization Files. Just make sure you understand fully before proceeding with changing the AUD.INI file.

    The other point I wanted to comment on under (c): regarding audio signal flow.
    When Sonar plays a project, it is reading the data for an audio track off the hard drive and routing it through the audio track modules of the Console view.
    Within each module, the data goes first to the Fx bin, and any assigned effects are applied. Then it is sent to the Volume parameter, then the Pan parameter, and then to the Output parameter. From there it is sent to the assigned bus or main. The data can be sent to the bus either before
    or after it reaches the Volume parameter. If the Bus Send Pre/Post buttom is set to Pre, the data is sent to the bus after it goes through the Fx bin but before it reaches the Volume parameter. So the volume slider won't affect the level of the signal. If the Bus Send Pre/Post button is set to Post, the data is routed to the bus after it goes through the Volume parameter. In this case, the Volume slider would affect the level of the signal being sent to the bus. You can see a picture of the signal flow if you go to
    Help> Help Topics>Mixing>Signal Flow.

    Your Emu soundcard is responsible to get audio or MIDI into Sonar, and then everything stays within Sonar until it leaves the Main output where it is routed back through your interface and to your speakers or headphones.

    Re: controlling crescendos, I was wondering if you have checked out automating the volume faders for your tracks. Sonar can record the movements you make on the fader while auditioning that track, and then every time it's played it will replicate those movements. You can read about automation in the Help>Topics>Automation section.

    The other way to control individual crescendos would be to draw volume envelopes into each instrument's or section's track. Check out Help>Topics>Tutorials>Tutorial 4>Drawing MIDI envelopes.

    Didn't mean to write a book, I hope something here may help a bit. John

  3. #3

    Re: SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

    Quote Originally Posted by bigears View Post
    .........

    Re: controlling crescendos, I was wondering if you have checked out automating the volume faders for your tracks. Sonar can record the movements you make on the fader while auditioning that track, and then every time it's played it will replicate those movements. You can read about automation in the Help>Topics>Automation section.

    The other way to control individual crescendos would be to draw volume envelopes into each instrument's or section's track. Check out Help>Topics>Tutorials>Tutorial 4>Drawing MIDI envelopes.

    Didn't mean to write a book, I hope something here may help a bit. John
    This one I already applied. The question was really, why do real recorded symphonic music always look (the image of the wave file), as if a crescendo from p to f, looks like being from p to ff. In other words, it looks like a heavier slider movement than my doing. It also sounds that way.
    The number of peaks are spread (in real recordings) more often, even when I read in the score "crescendo" which doesn't mean "hit them guys as hard as you can".

    Just wondering,

    Thank you for the answer, I will look into the first two remarks.

    Raymond

  4. #4

    Re: SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

    John "BigEars" has given you excellent feedback on your post, Raymond, as he is wont to do - such a powerhouse of info!

    Some of the other things you asked about are a bit mysterious - like how your solo Violin seems to be behaving differently. I can't fathom how that could possibly change just because you're in a new version of Sonar--It's MIDI data which should behave the same in any sequencer. Odd.

    But I'm surprised your project's mixing layout didn't import in the same configuration you originally had it. John explained that the Monitor bus which somehow replaced your Master is set up for exactly what it's named for - for a Monitoring signal which can be routed out at a constant volume. Why the old Master bus was replaced is mysterious to me.

    Setting up buses in any possible combination you can think of is always part of working with a project though. I'm sure you understand that all buses are created equal, we just route the signals the way we want, name them appropriately, etc. As long as we end up with outputs going to a Master, then there are a million different set ups that would work.

    Interesting observation you make about recordings of orchestras seeming to have a broader dynamic range than indicated in a score. I think it gets down to showmanship - that it's effective to milk the most drama possible from a score, so that distinctions between "f" and "ff" are really up to the interpretation of the conductor - and the best maestros are masters of Drama! - A good model for us to emulate when we deal with MIDI, which needs every tool we can think of to make the results interesting and musical.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

    Hello friends,

    Now I must quit for a while, because of other household things and I am feeling not well. I think a got a cold and dragging my wife around (this is: helping her going to other larger and the smallest rooms) doesn't do good to my back. In a week or so, I will be back for replying and commenting others works.

    Randy There are a lot of things different in Sonar8, compared to S5. Recording sliders movement is one example. Setting up specific buses is another and the ASIO buffer settings, inclusive the Playback/Recording buffers give me a bit of a headache. I will sort this out later.

    About that "drama" issue, today I listened to and read at the same time the score,of Schubert's 8th Symphony. Really, the conductor, which is Haitink, gave the crescendos a major "jump" while the score just told me a smooth transition from p to mf.

    Later this afternoon, I tried to do that with the first part. My impression is that it really adds to the "suspense".

    To all friends, have some very nice days, see you,

    Raymond

  6. #6

    Re: SONAR8-ized Symphony 1

    Raymond, it's good to take a break and rest when you can. Hope you're taking it easy--you've been so Massively busy!

    And I'm glad you're catching up on things in Sonar, and will do even more with that when you're up and working on it again--Because, "...Recording sliders movement is one example. Setting up specific buses is another..." Recording automation and designing your mixer with buses and routing the signals have been key elements in Sonar since before it was even called Sonar, back when it was still Cakewalk Pro Audio. Not new with 8, but now that you've found the tools - you'll end up loving how much more you can do.

    Take care!
    Randy

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