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Topic: Vibratro on strings

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  1. #1

    Vibratro on strings

    L.S.,


    I am very disappointed in trying to reduce the vibrato of the solo strings, to find out that it is not possible, because it is recorded that way and part of the basic waveforms.


    Why not recorded in ppp up to fff (long>short) as long as the bow permits without any loop. All needed notes in legato after another and than breaking apart on the natural silent points. It is the skill of the professional to change the direction of the bow with the smallest possible audible gap or attack, unless specific pointed to as in Sfz or marcato etc. In fact -looking at the violin player- the bow stays most of the time on the string, killing the last note (release only on open or leaved string) and in a mirrored, parabolic curve starting the new note, so a controlled and parabolic curved attack is more realistic then a longer 'length' to get a legato. And if you can't without vibration: on strings it is apparently not a change in volume but in pitch.


    A point so common that it seems to have less attention. A violin sounds different in an attic, bathroom or (crowded) concert hall. So reverb is not simply a kind of decay but also a sound shaper. Technically it is the interference between objects and the vibrating air. But more of interest for musician or composer/arranger is the relation between instruments and voices in an orchestra. For example do I refer to the high staccato notes of the soprano in a well known piece by Mozart which blend excellent with the flute and, if well conducted, produce a third sound, stronger than both sounds apart. And that is the soul of the symphonic orchestra: 1+1=3. This is close harmony and the real feeling of “riding the clouds”

    Maybe, in future, can there be a developing of some VST-engine to put some algoritme on two or more instruments in the final mix to produce these natural interferences.....?


    If you are not deaf than notice how a singer with vibrato becomes a standalone sound with the orchestra as a kind of background noise. The same is true for the string players who came from the Parkinson College. What is it? Gaining same time to craw to the right pitch? If so, than go home and play the mandolin. Vibrato is the out most killer of any interference with other instruments.

    Besides time interference is the most important job of the conductor; finding the balance, and if he or she has the guts to forbid vibrato, the for everyone audible overtones in 1+1=3. It is always there, whether you like it or not, if you hear it or not, it simply is the nature of sound and air.



    I suggest a new, modern notion: Vibrato stands for a big ego, but a very small musician.


    May be, if possible, the recordings should be redone. Speaking for myself, I am willing to pay for the huge amount of work to get it done and, then, perhaps an upgrade.....?


    with friendly greetings,
    Cees Rotteveel.

  2. #2

    Re: Vibratro on strings

    I think I remember Gary saying controllable vibrato on solo strings is going to be one of the new features in the upcoming Aria GPO upgrade.

    Steve Winkler

  3. #3
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    Re: Vibratro on strings

    Until recently it was not possible to have vibrato and dynamic crossfades on solo strings. When you crossfade between dynamic levels (pp to fff) you would get phasing and doubling during crossfades. Even the very expensive libraries costing many thousands could not provide vibrato control and dynamic crossfades with solo strings. The Solo Strad and the GigaViolin solved these problems. In GOS2 there will be vibrato controlled solo strings. We have developed some new technology and licensed real-time morphing to make expression even better in the future.

    Gary Garritan

  4. #4

    Re: Vibratro on strings

    [QUOTE=Kees Rotteveel;615791]L.S.,


    Gentlemen,


    If I knew how, I would start a worldwide crusade against vibrato and a forum seemed to be the place to start a discussion.


    To me vibrato is cheap as in easy, lack of phantasy and above all not musical. A vibrating sound will never blend with the straight sound of an orchestra.


    Listen to the female singer Montserat -up and down almost a semitone, no binding at all with the background. So many times there are given notes by the composer to be sounding in unison with the singer, then why don't they???


    Or the young Japanese cello player (I forgot his name) vibrating all the way in the same tempo.
    It sounds so stupid. Why does nobody warn him that it is ugly.


    So, please, Mr. Garritan, give me in the solo players part (i.e. 3 violins, 9 players etc.) the whole bow in length according to volume without any vibration. There will be enough 'drifting' to hold the sound interesting and expressive. It is up to the skill of your real string players.


    To me, vibration is not that important. Surprise me with a serene string sound at pp, a little bit floating, yes, but no attack or bow change heard, no loop, but players alternate together and definitely no vibrato.


    Kees Rotteveel

  5. #5
    Senior Member bigears's Avatar
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    Re: Vibratro on strings

    User control over vibrato is the main thing. Once available, the users tastes can dictate the use and amount of vibrato, depending on the musical setting and instrument ensemble. Looking forward to GPO4 and the new technology!
    John

  6. #6

    Re: Vibratro on strings

    PLEASE, NO MORE REQUESTS!!! They might take GPOA back into the shop and it will be years until we get another update!!!
    -Keith Fuller

    http://keithfullermusic.com
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    iMac Quad i7 * MacBook Pro * Logic Studio 9 * WD 320GB & 1TB Externals@7,200RPM * Presonus Firebox * M-Audio Axiom 25 & Keystation 61 * Rode NT1-A * Epiphone Hollowbody * Fender Amp * KRK Rokit 8's

  7. #7
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    Re: Vibratro on strings

    I sense this guy is trying to flame.

  8. #8

    Re: Vibratro on strings

    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Rotteveel View Post


    Maybe, in future, can there be a developing of some VST-engine to put some algoritme on two or more instruments in the final mix to produce these natural interferences.....?
    Those natural interferences are things that happen because of the way the sound has got from the instruments to you. They don't happen everywhere in the concert hall, and they certainly don't happen up close near the instruments. You'd need to use reverb plugins to simulate it.

    If you are not deaf than notice how a singer with vibrato becomes a standalone sound with the orchestra as a kind of background noise. The same is true for the string players who came from the Parkinson College. What is it? Gaining same time to craw to the right pitch? If so, than go home and play the mandolin. Vibrato is the out most killer of any interference with other instruments.


    I suggest a new, modern notion: Vibrato stands for a big ego, but a very small musician.
    I'm confused as to where you're coming from. Have you ever actually listened to an orchestra? Reverb is the default state of all string sections and several wind instruments. Most books on orchestration consider the instruction 'senza vibrato' to be a special effect. It's nothing to do with ego, or covering up inadequacies, it just gives a fuller tone. When you're putting together a budget orchestra such as GPO, you have to make certain choices about which articulations you can afford to record; if it comes down to whether to have vibrato or non-vib strings, I don't think anyone in their right mind would choose the non-vib. It makes for a really feeble tone in most circumstances.
    David

  9. #9

    Re: Vibratro on strings

    Flame?.. a good joke, thanks.


    I intend only to point at a bad thing that has become a habit over the years. In times of the great composers there was no vibrato: there is the mordent, the praller or tremolo. And 'senza vibrato' means, the composer got angry.


    Listening to music our brain hears to whole thing, included the noise around you. However, your attention -if not focused- is drawn to the movements of the sound, meaning, the new notes, the change in volume, the change of solo (instrument) and thereby to vibrato.


    Now, with this in mind, listen to a piece of music where there is a some vibrato (string or voice). Notice how your attention is (to much) drawn to the movement of the vibrato.


    Now listen again, but focus your ears on the orchestra. Hear the gap between the vibrating sound and the straight sound of the orchestra. Listen, how the composer cries out loud: play with us, not besides us. I am not against all vibrato, but used carefull and the less, the better.
    Yes, vibrato can be a great tool to pull out a phrase or sense, but to many times it is not that but only a habit.


    I rest my case. I keep hoping for straight basic waveforms in the individual string players - with the normal expression that comes with the whole movement of the bow. I keep hoping for the development of a kind of VST instrument with which you can provide interference between the instruments in the audio mixdown. Believe it or not, but my intentions are only improvement to reduce, a little bit more, the great difference between life and computer. And whether it is GPO4, 5, 6 or 7, I really don't mind.


    With best regards,
    kees rotteveel.

  10. #10
    Senior Member bigears's Avatar
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    Re: Vibratro on strings

    Hi Kees, Fair enough, I agree that the use of vibrato needs to be tasteful and
    carefully controlled, and it is a good subject for discussion.
    I forgot to welcome you to this forum and the community! I think there was a little trepidation about where your original post might be going.

    I hear sometimes a wide, fluctuating vibrato in some operatic singers that I find disagreeable. In a solo string player, it has to get pretty overbearing before it bothers me much. It also depends on the musical genre, sometimes it seems exactly the right effect to me and helps project a certain mood (romantic, sentimental, sad).

    My musical dictionary has this definition:
    Vibrato (It.) Recurrent subsidences and swells in a tone. On string instruments the slight fluctuation of pitch produced on sustained notes by an oscillating motion of the left hand. In singing,a scarcely noticeable wavering of tone.

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