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Topic: For Horst

  1. #1

    For Horst

    I tweaked around with some high string stuff. Mind you its not something I spent enough time on perfecting. AND I think I\'m a horrible string arranger.

    the first swell and a few in the first lin of 1st violins could be done better. Its jsut cc 11 right now. for slow strings I use a combination of the GOS EXP control and cc11, but I didn\'tspend enough time tweaking.

    The first is just reverb, no EQ and the second is with a little EQ some other harmonic exciters and a little more reverb after the other reverb.

    I also put up the MIDI file for anyone interested. Youcan see that its fairly quantized

    I used 1st violins Sordino, some 2nd violin Gr Detache

    cello Sordino, and a little of Full strings light..since I wasn\'t going for perfect anyway. Remeber this is a starting point. since I \'m a bad string writer and arranger it took me about 45 minutes to get this. I threw away another piece I started because it sucked. So It would only take really about 30 minutes to get these results...for me.. If you know what you want it shouldn\'t take anytime at all to get these results....then you tweak more and you get better results.

    Again I\'m not saying these are the best I think I can do high strings better. but I have to mimic something that exists to get the right sond. This was from scratch.

    Really...I am an Idiot

    [This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 11-16-2001).]

  2. #2

    Re: For Horst

    Hi King,
    you guys are being very nice. I have very little time this weekend, but I will carefully listen and reflect my impressions as soon as possible.
    Thanks so far.

  3. #3

    Re: For Horst

    not a real Problem Horst. I just know that many people have ben asking for demos from users. I am only offering this u because there isn\'t much around. I was on the beta team more because I\'m a sound tweaker not because I\'m a composer.

    In fact I listened to the stuff I put u again and I dont think its the best demo, so I want to re-itterate its purpose. Its an Idea of what the pianimmisso sounds sound like. Remember that the arrangement is probably more the problem in the demo. I think people haven\'t been able to differentiate composing and sound of a library. you CAN make other libraries sound good if you know how to compose for the particular instruments. Which is why I think GOS is better than AO. When I try to write \"real\" string lines it sounds better than when I use AO or US. this isn\'t to demonstrate the librries limits. I AM NOT the person to do that because I ....again... am a HORRIBLE string arranger

    I\'m sorry about all the disclaiers, Its just that I dont believe I\'m the one that can show this library at its best...BUT I dont believe anyone should be left in the dark as well One thing I can say is I DO know a good library when I see/hear one, and GOS IS a good Sample Library. I can\'t see anyone who writes for strings not get over a thousand dolalrs worth of use from this thing.

    Really...I am an Idiot

  4. #4

    Re: For Horst

    I threw up a couple more demos of the \"warm\" versions of isntruments.

    they are Sustained Vibrato and GrDetache samples mixed.

    The GR Det are the samples with the most expreswsive vibrato. Using a bit of layering with the standar Vibrato sampels and a bit of MIDI tweaking you can \"elongate\" the samples. In a similar fashion of an ensemble alternating bow direction to sustain a note.

    The I set the \"warmth\" to about half way to achieve that very soft sound. I also did not normalize or change volume gain at all s they sound a bit quiet. remember they ARE pianimisso samples so there is room for volume change with dynamics. Also the reverb I Use tends to sound harsh when you amplify it.

    The first is with a bit of EQ that most of us Beta Testers have been adding for \"softer\" passages. and some reverb. Teh second is with the same EQ added in test 2.

    hopefully this gives you an dea of the starting point. Once you dd legato features and some expressive changed in the dynamic range of samples is sounds much better...but thats part of string writing/playing

    Really...I am an Idiot

  5. #5

    Re: For Horst

    Hi King,
    I finally went over your demos a couple of times. Demos 1 and 2 sound really nice.

    I am coming to the conclusion that the gap between GOS and a real performance (which you can hear without efforts) will probably always be there. I think some improvement could be achieved while putting more time into it, but at the end of the day it is samples, what we hear. It is as simple as that: The softness and silkyness of a real performance can only be heard in a real performance.

    The approach should be: The examples show that the library seems well crafted and sounds good. From the bits and pieces I´ve heard it sounds more natural then KH. But I´ve heard some better performances with legato Violins from Vituos (warmer). But Vitous´ price is out of dicussion.

    I was not quite sure, what you wanted to achieve with the sketches 3 and 4. They sounded strange compared to real strings.

    Thank you very much for those insights!

    I will watch what is going on with GOS and I hope that Gary will not rise prices up to $1400...too much for many hobbyists.


  6. #6

    Re: For Horst

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horst:
    The softness and silkyness of a real performance can only be heard in a real performance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Tom Hartman probably shares your view here, though I wouldn\'t dismiss any string library as unrealistic sounding on the grounds that the patches and performances thereof don\'t sound soft and silky. Incomplete, perhaps. But not unrealistic. I\'m sure I don\'t have to tell you or Tom that the sound of strings is extremely varied and dynamic, not only from orchestra to orchestra but from one work to another played by the same orchestra. The developers of GOS have done an outstanding job in capturing much of that variation and dynamism. I suspect the GOS team members are now wrapping their heads around the question of how the WARMTH controller and the Sordino patches, among other options, might be used to realize the \"softness and silkyness\" [sic] that you and others desire. Perhaps one question to consider is whether \"silkiness\" is a function of seamless legato technique, the samples (e.g., tones played with minimal bow pressure), or both.


    P.S. I recognize that you never used the word \"unrealistic\" in your response, lest there be any confusion about my comments. I inferred the word from your post, as well as from Tom\'s (I don\'t recall the topic, but I do remember him using the word \"FAKE\"). I apologize if my inference was incorrect.

    [This message has been edited by PatS (edited 11-19-2001).]

  7. #7

    Re: For Horst

    While I may be inclined to agree that There will always be a gap between Sampled Strings and real strings, I think the gap is smaller than you mayy think. The MAIN issues with he examples I\'ve put up are from the fact that I\'m not primarily a string writer. This hinders my attempts, since I\'m not sure exactly what goes into making the sound of a real string section. I\'m completely sure that GOS is possible of recreting some VERY realistic performances, but for me it will take time. I\'ll need to spend time analyzing real string performances and try to emulate them. I\'ll possibly try this soon.

    As for Legato. I didn\'t spend much time trying to get realistic legato. I believe that GOS is the best choice for legato. I find that the attacks may be a tad sharp on the slow piano passages (this is why I put CC11 controll changes in), so It might be wroth an articulation update with a \"slow\" attack. This Is something that the end user can easily adjust, and has been (I was lazy), not to mention it will probably show up as an update, since the library is \"evolving\" and Gary is offering free updates with many user requests.

    The second demos where to show that you can get a very \"old\" sound really quickly. I put quite a bit of \"warmth\" into the sound. In fact its more than what anyone on the beta team recomends, I jsut wanted to try for a very \"old\" sound very quickly.

    I will state that the more lbraries you own the more options and sounds you will have and that this may be whats needed to make EVERYONE happy. I\'m a fan of layering dfferent libraries, and I\'m sure this is always going to be the way for me,...the bigger the better

    Actually I really like layering different suonds from GOS to get a bigger sound.

    Anyhow I understand your reluctance to purchase anything blindly, I would just like to remind you that, to make a reealistic performance from samples you must be a good composer/arragner for taht particular instrument, understand sampling, understand mixing. Not to mention have some musical taletnt for somposing in general! GOS takes alot of the effort tat used to be in putting realistic string lines tgether, but this doesn\'t make it automatically sound \"real\" it still takes a bit of tweaking to get the best performance.

    Anyhow, better \"demos\" will show up in user compositions and over time people will learn to \"use\" the library \"correctly\", which will show that without a doubt GOS is the first choice for strings. Not that there aren\'t any others, and not that others dont have merits, but taht GOS is a must ahve for string composers. I know it sounds like I\'m advertising, but I truly believe this just from the amount of options it gives the composer.

    Really...I am an Idiot

  8. #8

    Re: For Horst

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PatS:
    Tom Hartman probably shares your view here, though I wouldn\'t dismiss any string library as unrealistic sounding on the grounds that the patches and performances thereof don\'t sound soft and silky. ... I inferred the word from your post, as well as from Tom\'s (I don\'t recall the topic, but I do remember him using the word \"FAKE\").
    [This message has been edited by PatS (edited 11-19-2001).]


    I believe you\'re referring to my comments about a demo of Kirk Hunter\'s library. I did find that particular demo, though well written, extremely \"synthy\" sounding on the high strings, but I hear that a lot in the high registers of most sample libraries, even Gary\'s, though less in his than others.

    The silkiness thing is probably never going to be captured, because it is a function of the immediacy that you hear in a recording of the real thing. I do think that each specific situation is different. There are some passages in some works that with the right samples....like GOS...and good programming, can be duplicated to the point where no one in their right mind would bet their own home on whether it was sampled or not. But in other cases, the same great library and programmer that just accomplished greatness falls flat on its/his/her face when faced with something else....particularly the broad high sweepng melodiy lines I\'ve discussed before up here. We shall have to wait and see, and hope that things improve....but Gary\'s inroads are fascinating and encouraging. His dedication and love for the subject is most refreshing in a business of charlatans charging insane amounts for pure crap, pardon my bluntness.

  9. #9

    Re: For Horst


    I finally listened to the Main Title of *The Cowboys* and the Love Theme from *Chinatown* (tracks 1 and 12, Varese Sarabande recording) and must admit that the high violin passages would pose a challenge to the GOS gurus, such as King(not_an_Idiot) and Simon. Nonetheless, I believe they could pull it off with GOS, provided they had some time to experiment with the plethora of controller and layering options. I\'d particularly like to hear what they would do with those sultry harmonics (Love Theme, track 1; well, they sound like harmonics to me).

    BTW, I couldn\'t find a JFK recording (sigh). Also, the only orchestral tracks on the *Back to the Future* soundtrack are 3 and 6, at least on the CD that I found. The strings on track 3 were nothing to write home about and would be a no-brainer to emulate for someone like King (heck, I could probably do it). In contrast, the strings and writing on track 6 (same theme rhythmically augmented, emerging from the sustained G6) are quite lovely, but again I believe the \"gurus\" could produce that dolce sound in short order.

    How\'s that for delegation? (Sorry, King and Simon, but that\'s the price you pay for doing such a good job. Oh, I almost forgot about Tom Hopkins and his great demos, though I suspect he\'d rather be left alone for a while. )

    As for the \"synthy\" sound, I tend to call it \"user error.\" For good or ill, I can make a marcato patch sound like GM strings if I push the tempo and/or rhythm beyond what is typical for that type of articulation (as you know, marcato is on the \"heavier\" side of the articulation spectrum). Fortunately, GOS has so many patches and controller options that, with time, one should be able to find the right sound for most musical contexts. But there\'s the rub: some of us just don\'t have the time; I barely find time to scratch some notes on the manuscript paper I carry with me. Hence my lighthearted request elsewhere for a GOS Power User\'s Guide; actually, I\'m quite serious about that, now that I\'ve given it some more thought. (King, are you reading this?)

    Anyway, thanks, Tom, for your insight and input.


    [This message has been edited by PatS (edited 11-20-2001).]

  10. #10

    Re: For Horst

    Pat S. wrote:

    \". . . though I suspect he\'d rather be left alone for a while.\"

    I\'m warning you: Leave me alone! Just leave me alone!! What\'s the matter, don\'t you understand English? I\'ve had my fill of this. Look, I don\'t want to have to say this again . . . Back off. Cut it out. Stop it. No more!!! There\'s only so much a man can take. Give me a break. Haven\'t you got something better to do than torment me? Etc. etc.


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