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Topic: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

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  1. #1

    DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Hello. DP DAN (or anyone who might be able to help me) I've read and followed your Audio Mixing Tutorial on the Garritan Tutorial page -fantastic! But would you clarify something for me?

    In the section on "panning" do you usually pan your MIDI tracks (in KP2 or whatever) then convert to audio or do you convert all MIDI tracks centered THEN pan the new audio tracks?

    I think in the tutroial you may have indicated that you panned the MIDI file then produced the audio, but a little more info will help me.

    Thanks!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  2. #2

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Hi Reber,
    I'm glad the tutorial was some help.

    I don't ever use the volume or pan in midi.
    Modwheel yes, here's what I do,... I record each instrument to it's own individual audio track in DP.

    When I load some instruments in the Kontakt player, the very first thing I do is set the volume to about zero db, this does not mean off, it means near full in the Kontakt player. Make sure the volume and pan is turned off by clicking on the little "gears" icon to the left of the loaded instrument.
    If you have midi volume and pan data in your midi track, the Kontakt's volume and/or pan will be remotely controlled by the midi data, but we don't want that, so we set Kontakt to disregard any volume and pan CC data coming into the Kontakt player. CC = "control change" or some call it "continuously changing" data.

    Here's a very short video (1.5 mb)

    QUICKTIME

    WINDOWS

    Since many of the instruments in GPO are mono, there is no need to waste computer ram resources for stereo audio tracks for a single instrument, unless of course that instrument in question is indeed stereo, like many of the percussion instruments and string "section sounds". I have provided a list below that shows the mono or stereo status of the individual instruments in GPO.

    You will want to record each mono instrument in GPO to a mono audio track and stereo instruments to stereo audio tracks. In the Kontakt player, you can set the audio output (group or pair) to your specific audio tracks in your sequencer.

    Set the input of your audio track to coincide with the KP group output that you chose for that instrument, and remember to set the pan. Depending on the power resources of your computer, you can record a bunch of instruments in one pass. More on this "panning thing" a little later on.

    The Kontakt player uses group 1-2 for the main outputs, so it is not listed in the drop down list of available KP group outputs in the sequencer, (for assigning to audio tracks for recording).


    If you have not already, you should create 15 stereo audio output groups in Kontakt 2's mixer. Here is a detailed post with everything you need to do to create these additional output groups. Once you follow these instructions, you will only have to do this once, then every time in the future when you open KP2 they will be there waiting for you, ready to connect digitally inside your sequencer.

    Create lots of outputs in Kontakt 2 player

    Native Instruments assumes that most users will be content with just two stereo output groups..... like [st.1] and [st. 2]



    These can be seen in the upper left-hand corner of the loaded instrument in KP2.

    1. Up at the top of the GUI, click on the
    "outputs" tab unless you already have them showing,
    (looks like a mixer).



    Now let's add 15 more stereo outputs, or groups if you want to use that term.

    2. Select "Add Channel"



    you will get a pop up
    window that says...



    hit "OK"
    then click on "Add Channel" a second time, the
    pop up appears again,
    hit "OK" Do this 13 more times. This will give you
    16 stereo outputs for each instance of KP2,... very cool.
    The st-1 output will not be one of our "group outputs".



    You will notice that the newly added
    channels (faders) are named <new>.

    3. On the <new> channel that is farthest to the left,
    change it to 5-6.
    To do this, double click on the word <new>
    then type 5-6 then "ENTER".

    4. Do the same thing for the next newly added
    channel and name it 7-8.
    Continue this renaming process with all the other newly added channels
    all the way to 31-32.
    If you are like me, you will want to rename [st.1] and [st.2] to
    1-2 and 3-4 respectively.

    5. Click on the "Conf." button on the bottom of
    your newly added channel that you just named 5-6.



    6. In this "channel output configuration" box,
    you will see the two mono channels,.... notice that
    they are not assigned. Click on the top channel,
    (ch# 01), then scroll down and select
    "unassigned [5]"
    Now select (ch# 02) and scroll down and select
    "unassigned [6]"
    hit "OK" to close the channel output configuration
    box.

    You will again get the annoying pop up....
    hit "OK".

    Next, do the same thing for all the rest of the channels, and naturally,
    the next channel will be 7-8, so it will use unassigned 7 and unassigned 8 respectively.
    I know this sounds confusing but just take it a step at a time.

    7. Onward, back in the Kontakt Player 2 outputs
    window, hit the tab labeled "Reset Out Map."



    You will get the pop up window again, hit "OK".

    8. Hit the red "Make Default" tab, this is very important...



    You will get a new pop up that says "Output configuration was saved as
    default" then hit "OK".

    From now on, when you open a new instance of KP2, you will be able
    to assign any loaded instrument, to any of the 16 stereo "pair" outputs of
    your choice. In case you are reading this topic and don't know what a bunch of this stuff is...
    read this, it will be helpful.

    http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/AudioMixing.htm

    If you have eight woodwinds loaded in a player, and you know they are all mono, you can set (assign) the first instrument to group output (3-4) but set the pan in the Kontakt player "hard left". The second instrument would also be set to group output 3-4, but this one would be panned "hard right". This method doesn't waste the stereo groups on just one instrument. The third instrument would be set to group output 5-6 panned hard left, the fourth instrument would be set to 5-6 and panned hard right, etc etc. Odd channels are left, and even channels are right.

    You must remember this.... a kiss is just a kiss.,,, never mind
    when we set the pan slider, we are not choosing where this instrument is going to be heard from on the "pan"oramic stage... but rather, we are setting it so that the instrument will be directed to a discrete channel of a group output.

    Here is an example,... if you are using the Steinway Grand and a flute, you would need a stereo audio track for the piano, and a mono track for the flute. In your sequencer's mixer, the pan of the recorded piano audio track would be set "center" so that both channels of the stereo piano can be heard, while the flute's pan would be set wherever you want the flute to be on the stage from left to right, the choice is yours. Have fun with panning, experiment with it, but be careful when you pan things extremely far to one side or the other, those instruments will actually stick out in the mix if they are "over there" by themselves.

    This is a list of the GPO instruments and their STEREO / MONO status.

    I hope this helps.
    Dan

    All Flutes MONO

    All English Horns MONO

    All Oboes MONO except...
    Oboe 2 Modern Solo and Oboe 3 Modern Solo (STEREO)

    All Clarinets MONO
    All Bassoons MONO
    All French Horns MONO except...
    Overlay F, Overlay F AG, and Overlay FF (STEREO)

    All Trumpets MONO except...
    Overlay, Overlay AG, TPT Piccolo NV Solo and TPT Piccolo V Solo (STEREO)

    All Trombones MONO except...
    Overlay and Overlay AG (STEREO)

    All Tubas MONO except...
    Overlay and Overlay AG (STEREO)

    All Percussion Instruments STEREO except Snares KS (MONO)
    All Harps STEREO
    All Pianos STEREO
    All Pipe Organs STEREO
    All solo Violins MONO except... Violin 2 Strad Pizz Solo (STEREO)
    All solo Violas MONO
    All solo Cellos MONO
    All solo Basses MONO
    All section Strings STEREO


    *NOTE* since Garritan now uses it's own ARIA engine, (player) some new brass instruments from SAM BRASS have been added that did not exist in previous "Kontakt" versions. These Sam Brass samples are all stereo. The new ARIA version of GPO referred to as "GPO4" can be purchased for $49.00, provided you have a previous legal version, and a serial number from Native Instruments. Go to www.garritan.com and get GPO4... it will include these Sam Brass samples, and the new ARIA player.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  3. #3

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Dan,

    Great info. I am running into a problem. Using KP2 as a standalone I can change the names of the new channels to "5-6" "7-8" etc. Inside my sequencer (SONAR 7) I cannot. I can highlight the name "7-8" etc but KP2 will not accept any changes to the label. Help!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  4. #4

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Hi Reber,

    I have had that same exact problem in Pro Tools, it's as if once you click on the Kontakt GUI, the computer keyboard is still connected to Sonar.

    I do not know why but my guess is this is a Native Instruments issue.
    I even tried to make the new outputs and name them in stand alone, and of course I could change the name, but Pro Tools did not recognize the newly added groups, even though I clicked reset out map and "Make Default".

    I am interested to see what you find. Perhaps contact Native Instruments and see if they will give you a fix. They will probably just tell you that you need to buy KP3... That is not an answer to me.

    I am proud that you are doing this, it will make computer life so much nicer for you.

    Keep me posted
    Dan

  5. #5

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Dan,

    Thanks again for such a rapid response. I have found that I can re-name the channels in the configuration screen but have run into another problem there. KP2 does not indicate any unassigned channels above 14! I can configure everything through 11-12 but there is no option for "unassigned [13]" and up!

    Buying Kontakt 3 is not an option for me either. I will continue to play with this but have a feeling I will fall back on the SONAR mixer.

    If you have a solution for the configuring of channels 13 and up it would be good to see!

    Thanks.
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  6. #6

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Probably your best person to ask here about that is Randy Bowser, since I don't use Sonar. I bet he can find the reason.

    Dan

  7. #7

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Dan, Thanks. I will probably ask Randy but now for something a little different...

    How do I add the surround 5.1 output back into KP2 if I want to? Can't seem to figure it out (not that I'll use it - just would like to know!)

    Thanks.

    EDIT: Okay I figured out how to do this (the 5.1 thing) AND I thought I had my initial problem solved (assigning up to 32 outputs) but not yet.

    I will keep experimenting.
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  8. #8

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    It's late but I thought I'd report that I found a way to add and configure the channals in SONAR like DP Dan but although I am seeing MIDI activity on these channels I am not getting any audio. Will report back when sleep had been had!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  9. #9

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    My radar was on alert - I sense my name being called from across the internet ether--Yes, I was right!

    Ah yes, getting all 16 stereo outs in KP2 using Sonar. For some time I had only 12 outs in my default mixer, and I remember that at the time I upgraded to KP2, it was being said on our tech Forums that this was the max.

    O Contrare - The trick is you have to usurp the outs being used by the Aux buses 1 through 4. They're just audio outs like any other, except that NI has hardwired those faders into the GUI--so you won't get rid of the red bus faders, but you Can add channels so that you use audio outs 25 through 32 - the ones initially assigned to the aux buses.

    If you're wanting to do some mixing inside KP2, using reverb sends etc--then you'll need those aux buses of course - But I think we're all pretty much with the program of wanting to use KP2 just as an audio engine to get our sounds out into our DAWs. If that's the case, then go ahead and add more channels as per the above - All your sending and busing et al will be done in Sonar's mixer.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: DP Dan's Mix Tutorial Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by reberclark View Post
    Using KP2 as a standalone I can change the names of the new channels to "5-6" "7-8" etc. Inside my sequencer (SONAR 7) I cannot. I can highlight the name "7-8" etc but KP2 will not accept any changes to the label. Help!
    You're trying to re-name them after clicking "config"-right? It looks like you can highlight and type in a new name right there in the mixer, but that doesn't work. With an instance open in Sonar, clicking Config at the bottom of each fader is where you change the names - just as you did when you routed the signals to the various outs.

    Randy

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