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Topic: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

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  1. #1

    KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Thanks to DP DAN and RANDY I now have 16 stereo pairs coming out of one instance of KP2. Amazing sound. Thanks guys!

    This question concerns the workflow after MIDI tracks are entered. If you're using Ambience, Do you put an effect send on each KP2 out track (1-2, 3-4 etc) or do you render (bounce to track) each MIDI track to a new audio track and insert your send there (using the audio tracks to compose the final mix (pan, fx, etc))?

    I have a feeling that you guys are rendering (bouncing to tracks) your MIDI tracks to audio then doing the final mix (pan and reverb etc). Is this right?

    It seems an obvious question, but this 16 out thing is so new to me, and involves so many more tracks than I was using, the benefit of your experience would be invaluable to me.
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  2. #2

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Howdy, Reber

    - DPDAN has his own wonderful way of working, utilizing AltiVerb which he's explained before on the Forum. I'm sure he can describe his process again or point to the appropriate thread.

    I'll reply with what the more standard practice is:

    "...If you're using Ambience, Do you put an effect send on each KP2 out track (1-2, 3-4 etc) or do you render (bounce to track) each MIDI track to a
    new audio track and insert your send there (using the audio tracks to compose the final mix (pan, fx, etc))?..."

    The latter. Dan and I and a lot of folks want to work with good old fashioned solid Audio when we're putting together our mixes. The audio tracks you have in Sonar pumping out the soft synth sounds are, to me, "virtual audio"--It's just the conduit for the sound of the instrument, but there's no actual audio file involved.

    I want to see the wave form in my Track View so I can do more accurate sound envelope, for one thing. And I want DRY tracks with no effects applied directly to those audio files. I can come back later and completely re-do my mix if I want and have loud, dry, unaffected audio to work with again. Effects are added via buses and FX bins.

    "...I have a feeling that you guys are rendering (bouncing to tracks) your MIDI tracks to audio then doing the final mix (pan and reverb etc). Is this right?..."

    So, yes, that's what we're doing. Projects can end up with 20, 30, 40, 60 audio tracks. All of those can be more easily controlled with Bus groupings - A bus for your Strings, Woods-etc.

    The part that Dan does differently, and he can explain best, is that he's pumping his audio signals through AltiVerb completely, because that convolution reverb app has a very sophisticated way of creating the sound stage, distance of the mike etc. He doesn't use Sends anymore - I do believe I have that right.

    I do things the old fashioned way which works the same as it did/does with hardware mixers. Once I have all the audio tracks in my project, I use the Track Manager (or "M" on the computer keyboard) to select the tracks I want to have visible. No reason to have all those MIDI and virtual audio tracks cluttering up my view. I should add that I also mute and archive those tracks, and disengage my KP2 instances and any other soft synths I used. No need for any of that at this point.

    I end up with a view of audio tracks only in both the Console View (Mixer) and the Track View.

    I right click in each track's channel strip to turn on a Send, and direct it to the Bus which has been set up with whatever Reverb plugin I want to use, such as Ambience. Then I set all the dfiferent percentages of audio which is to be processed through that reverb bus. The full signal of the track itself is going to a Master bus, and just a portion is being mixed in with reverb through the Send and Bus.

    Many of my projects use several different reverbs, but it still involves the same process.

    KP2 was built so that you could add effects directly inside of it. There are sends and a variety of effects you can apply, including convolution reverb. This makes it a decent "one in all" module - you just need to get all that processed signal out into an app--BUT I bypass all that. I want to do my actual mixing inside the much more expanse canvas of my sequencer, Sonar. KP2 is for me just the audio engine to get my signals into Sonar.

    OK?

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    OK!

    Thanks again for your patience, Randy! And I have found another buried nugget of wisdom in your mention of the Track Manager for SONAR. I wondered how you managed that myriad of tracks.

    You should write a book!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  4. #4

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    "...You should write a book!..."

    I leave that to Scott R. Garrigus - He's written the complete line of "Cakewalk/Sonar Power!" books which are such good replacements for the manuals Cakewalk used to publish that they gave up and handed the job over to him! Everything you could possibly want to know about using Sonar and soft synths is in there.

    Glad you're doing so well now, Reber.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Randy, Well I am embarsassed to say I own the Garrigus book. I haven't assimilated it all yet and that Track Manager mention was a great help.

    I believe DP DAN or yourself may have covered this, but before bouncing to audio do you usually move the default Garritan instrument placement (pan) in GPO to the center and move the volume up to 0db? Then do the pan and volume in the final mix? I think I read this somewhere but I am trying to clarify.

    Almost there - Reber

    EDIT: Just to clarify...I'm not embarassed to own Scott's book! I'm embarassed at my lack of knowledge!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  6. #6

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Hi Reber, go back to my post where I describe in detail the very thing of setting the pan in the other thread...

    but here is part of what I posted

    And, here is a 13 MB movie about organizing audio tracks into separate faders for mixing.

    MAC

    WINDOWS

    Since many of the instruments in GPO are mono, there is no need to waste computer ram resources for stereo audio tracks for a single instrument, unless of course that instrument in question is indeed stereo, like many of the percussion instruments and string "section sounds". I have provided a list below that shows the mono or stereo status of the individual instruments in GPO.

    You will want to record each mono instrument in GPO to a mono audio track and stereo instruments to stereo audio tracks. In the Kontakt player, you can set the audio output (group or pair) to your specific audio tracks in your sequencer.

    Set the input of your audio track to coincide with the KP group output that you chose for that instrument, and remember to set the pan. Depending on the power resources of your computer, you can record a bunch of instruments in one pass. More on this "panning thing" a little later on.

    The Kontakt player uses group 1-2 for the main outputs, so it is not listed in the drop down list of available KP group outputs in the sequencer, (for assigning to audio tracks for recording).

    and....


    If you have eight woodwinds loaded in a player, and you know they are all mono, you can set the first instrument to group output (3-4) but set the pan in the Kontakt player "hard left". The second instrument you would also set to group output 3-4, but this one you would pan "hard right". This method doesn't waste the stereo groups on just one instrument. The third instrument would be set to group output 5-6 panned hard left, the fourth instrument would be set to 5-6 and panned hard right, etc etc. Odd channels are left, and even channels are right.

    You must remember this.... a kiss is just a kiss.,,, never mind
    when we set the pan slider, we are not choosing where this instrument is going to be heard from on the "pan"oramic stage... but rather, we are setting it so that the instrument will be directed to a discrete channel of a group output.

  7. #7

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Dan, yup I went back to your initial reply which I had printed out and re-read that info. The advice on mono instruments and their handling was nice to know.

    My mixes already sound better. I just re-did my entry in the movie clip challenge - what a difference!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  8. #8

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Awesome Reber, if you are ever in STL call me..
    we can eat some pizza and talk shop

    Dan

  9. #9

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    Hey Dan, I just did a piece commissioned by the Clayton High School band (using Garritan products, of course, to develop the piece). Clayton is a St. Louis suburb. Charlie Blackmore is the band director there. It was the school's 100th anniversary. They will be playing the piece off and on over the next year and I may be attending a performance. If so, I'll look you up!

    Reber
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  10. #10

    Re: KP2 16 Out Workflow Question

    I did some recording at Clayton High years ago.

    You are welcome here.
    Dan

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