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Topic: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

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  1. #1

    Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Hello Everyone,

    Thanks for your comments on my last upload - I have now implemented your suggestions and the tune sounds a lot better.

    The new link is for Ave Maria by Caccini(?), it is recorded from a piano transcrition that I have. It should be sung by a soprano, but I don't have any voice software (I don't know if there is any, truth be told).

    Any comments for improvements would be gratefully received.

    http://www.box.net/shared/01b92pebq6

    Thanks in advance.

    Albert

  2. #2
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    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Hi gypsy,

    Caccini’s Ave Maria is indeed a very nice song for a soprano. It has been on my to do list for a long time, ordered by my favorite soprano and companion Margaret. There are several orchestral soprano versions around.

    I hope I will not discourage you by pointing out just a few things I would not do or do differently. No doubt you will get some other and perhaps conflicting views.

    As you have arranged it, it is orchestral music only. You could not have a soprano sing, while the melody instrument is so strongly apparent and competing with the singer. It is ok to double the singer’s part by an instrument and helps inexperienced singers. But it must not challenge the singer by its dominance.

    The melody is plaid partly by a harsh sounding violin section/instrument or synth with an unreal vibrato.

    The volume of instruments moves up and down very excessively. One could get sea sick. The volume of the base line changes from extremely loud to almost none.

    My view is that dynamics is created by changing the color in the orchestration, allowing different instruments and sections to come forward. It is not created by moving volume sliders

    Best wishes,

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
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    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  3. #3

    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Hello Albert,

    This is very nice but, the violin is a little hot in some spots to my ears. I think if you do some tweaking here and there you will have it nailed.

    I used to play this song back in the 50's on the piano before I switched to rock n roll.
    Producer ~ Sound Engineer ~ Musician

    http://www.myspace.com/451525581

  4. #4

    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Nice piece and I agree with Herbert, though he wrote:

    My view is that dynamics is created by changing the color in the orchestration, allowing different instruments and sections to come forward. It is not created by moving volume sliders
    Using both can make a difference. Adding instruments for dynamics and adding sliders for a bit of "drama".

    Raymond


  5. #5
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    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Quote Originally Posted by sonata5920 View Post
    As you have arranged it, it is orchestral music only. You could not have a soprano sing, while the melody instrument is so strongly apparent and competing with the singer. It is ok to double the singer’s part by an instrument and helps inexperienced singers. But it must not challenge the singer by its dominance.
    Albert can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the solo violin is like place holder for the voice since he does not have anyway to record the voice. If he used this for a real singer, the violin would be removed. At least that is how I hear it (I do similar things). And actually, as a purely orchestral piece, it sounds pretty good.

    Hey Albert, I like this. There might be some problems with the mix, but overall I enjoyed it.
    Trent P. McDonald

  6. #6

    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Hello, Albert - This has become an interesting thread with a number of conflicting things being said.

    From your text in the header - I'm not clear if you've updated this thread, if I'm hearing a different version than what you had up originally?

    And correct us if we're wrong, but I think Trent is correct in thinking that you have the Violin standing in for the vocalist in this recording. Isn't that right? This would negate the critique about the Violin (A GPO Solo Violin I think?) competing with a singer.

    In the mix, the rest of the orchestra is fairly low in contrast to your solo, so I wasn't always sure about it, but really what I heard was sounding smooth and well done.

    Randy

  7. #7
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    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Hi,

    It is quite a nice effort but not perfect. Albert said:

    “Any comments for improvements would be gratefully received.”

    Just to say it is nice will not help Albert and is a waste of time.

    There is voice software called Vocaloid. It is expensive and not so good.

    Albert, try the real thing, life sopranos. They are plentiful, cost nothing and might even pay you for your work. If your arrangement does not fit the singer you can tailor your music to suit, that is, if you are not restricted to preserving the original music, keys etc. Arrange the music after the soprano and you have agreed on what needs to be done. A drastic change in key or tempo may make an original arrangement unplayable and useless. Be prepared for lots of revisions.

    Best wishes,

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  8. #8

    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Hello again, Albert - I hope to see you here again on your thread. This morning's auto-email brought me back here.

    Herbert has a very good idea, to work with a singer for your "Ave Maria" project so you can focus on the arrangement. That can be quite an undertaking, since recording a live vocal and then working with the audio can be a somewhat advanced thing to do in a home studio - It depends on if you're set up for that and have some confidence with the process.

    If you do try that, I don't think you'll find good Sopranos quite as "plentiful" as Herbert optimistically says they are, or that you would easily find one that "costs nothing." But if it's possible, of course it would be ideal.

    Most of us have various other ways of trying out arrangements intended to be supporting singers, but of course nothing is as satisfactory as having an actual singer.

    Some of us here have asked if you intended the Violin to be standing in for the singer. It appears to me you have, but won't know for sure until you reply. If that was your intention, I would suggest you use a woodwind for standing in - Flutes and Clarinets, for instance, are more like the human voice than strings are.

    I've looked back over this thread, and I don't see anyone who has just said your work on this is "nice." It looks to me like people have been appropriately encouraging along with having some criticisms and questions - Like in my earlier post, I said the mix has the other instruments so low that I couldn't be sure about your arrangement.

    In any case - Hope to hear from you on this again.

    Randy

  9. #9
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    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Gday,

    As you can see I have changed my address to the forum. Folks in the USA say “Hello” the English say “Hi”. After living many years now in Australia, I will be using the local address of “Gday” or “Gday mate”. I also intend to write to Microsoft, to ask them to produce localized versions of their software, suitable for Australian users. The “Yes” button should be labeled “Alright Mate” and the “Cancel” button should be labeled “No Way Mate”. I am working on other changes.

    When it comes to singing, I do not sing, not even under the shower. I have been blessed now for many years by being married to a very loud and very talented Soprano, Margaret. Over the years, I have met many singers, singing teachers, coaches, etc, of professional standard, semiprofessionals and amateurs. Only a few singers make money. Many spend a lot of money on singing teachers and coaches.

    Randy said:

    “I don't think you'll find good Sopranos quite as "plentiful" as Herbert optimistically says they are, or that you would easily find one that "costs nothing."

    Mate, I am talking from experience. I never said anything about the quality of sopranos. They come as they are. Some are very good, many are not so good. If I would advertise my services in the paper, the phone would not stop for weeks. Most, if not all singers want to become a star. They sacrifice a lot for it. Backing tracks are a lot cheaper than repetiteurs and a lot more convenient. If the accompaniment can be tailored to the singer, what could be better?

    Randy said:

    “Some of us here have asked if you intended the Violin to be standing in for the singer. It appears to me you have, but won't know for sure until you reply. If that was your intention, I would suggest you use a woodwind for standing in - Flutes and Clarinets, for instance, are more like the human voice than strings are.”

    Randy is right. I use either an English Horn or a Clarinet. My practice CD’s consist of a complete recording without solo voice and a complete recording with solo voice (English Horn or Clarinet usually). The music is divided into many short tracks without gaps in-between the tracks.

    The music Margaret and I are doing, ranges from church music to lieder, operatic arias and right through to pop. We give many live concerts, that is, Margaret sings live while I provide the backing music from a reasonably sophisticated console. If it is pop, I dress like a mad DJ. For classical music I try to dress sophisticated, more like a conductor. Margaret always looks superb. The visual impact is very important especially as there is no orchestra.

    Best wishes,

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  10. #10
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    Re: Ave Maria - Caccini(?)

    Albert,

    I hope you get a chance to hear your arrangement with a vocalist. I'd love to hear that complete version.

    Jeff

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