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Topic: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

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  1. #51

    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    Several great resources:

    Peter Alexander's reworking of R-K's principles of orchestration

    Dick Grove School Without Walls, Composing and Arranging Program (different from Berklee's, unique in its own way)

    and of course Berklee Online's orchestration courses.

    Btw, the way jazz voiceleading is typically taught (with guidetones and so forth) is actually completely applicable to any orchestral tonal approach from the Late Romantic on. You don't have to use all the crazy extentions (although Ravel did)... you don't have to use crunchy clusters (although Stravinsky, et al, did)... but the concept of linear writing to "evoke" a chord progression was a revelation to me, having also been put through the "no parallel fifths" grinder.

  2. #52

    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    Well Alyosha. So much for the knowledge of your elders and betters. I think you must have been studying the wrong books because I use the principles of four part harmony all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    I've spent along time studing traditional harmony from all the best regraded books such as Piston, Kosta, Gaulding, Aldwell and Schachtner etc. But all they do is teach you how to construct four part chorals. The reason usually given for this in the texts is that all of the music under consideration is essentially just "activeated" four part chorales. But my teacher has told me that this is just not true and the principles of four part harmony you spend years learning are just never used.

    So my question is why bother learning it at all in the first place if all you do is just throw it all away?

  3. #53

    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    enlightening sincerity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corda1983 View Post
    I'm probably opening a can of worms by ripping into this interesting but old thread! It is a really great debate though and one I wanted to chime in on.

    I, like a lot of people here, spent about a year studying four-part harmony. I was taught all about parallel 5ths, not doubling the third, resolving dissonance, faulty and correct progression etc etc. I must have done about a hundred Bach Chorales - and got most of them wrong in the process!

    Then I got into studying works by other composers. Suddenly, my music teacher spent most of his time explaining why Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven chose NOT to follow a particular rule of four part harmony. I was disillusioned - why the hell did I have to learn all this just to find out practically every brilliant composer found ways out of it to realise their masterpieces?!

    As time went on I started reading more scores and moving away from Classical into 20th century, film scores etc. I was utterly confused to find composers like Carl Orff writing more parallel 5ths than you could shake a stick at. Composers like Schoenberg and Stravinsky clearly gave about as much thought to four-part harmony as they did to what socks they were going to wear that day. I studied John Williams pieces to find his chords floated about all over the place; sometimes he used a lot of harmonic rules, other times he seemed to be arranging trombone or horn chords any old way. I recently studied the LOTR scores; as you can imagine (and probably hear) the harmonic progressions in those scores are often very basic, with chords often moving by step up and down and wherever Howard Shore wants them to go. In today's modern world of guitar barre chords and rock/pop music the concept of four part harmony seems utterly redundant. It's theoretically old and, more importantly, seems musically useless - why should I arrange my harmony so specifically when there are rock musicians playing everything in the same voicing and making some of the most loved music ever heard!?!?

    Then, I realised something. I hear a female singer improvising on some TV show. She was singing a line of music and her voice went up to a high C-note and down a semitone to B at the end of a melodic phrase she was making up. I knew instantly what was happening. This was a leading note. I knew what chord I'd need to use to prepare the resolution of the phrase (V, or V7, to I of course!). I instantly began reckoning back from that, thinking of how this whole phrase could have been harmonised.

    The reason this felt "natural" to me was a combination of instinct (we all have some instinct about music, that's why she was able to improvise such a melodic line), but also musical theory. Four part might not be strictly useful in today's modern musical world, but it's damn helpful and has given me an innate sense of musical flow that I might have had subconsciously but could never have expressed.

    The difference it made to my composing was significant. Before I used to know what I wanted but not really know what it was theoretically. Today before I've even sat at my piano I can have a melodic line in my head and already hear what's going on: I VI ii vi etc. Does this make me a better composer? No, probably not. Does it make me faster, more able to visualise my ideas and contextualise my musical thoughts? Absolutely.

    Whilst I know this is not all strictly four-part technique (you don't need to know four-part to know chord progressions), it was learning four part that enabled me to do it. It also enables me to work quickly and subconsciously understand what I'm trying to do: I can now quickly realise when I want to write in close writing, or open writing. It's also useful for more subtle part writing; if I want to write a 9th into my next chord, what are the implications musically? I could just stack it straight in there, or divide the strings and get it in that way. But knowing four part might enable me to do it as effectively as possible. Maybe I'll introduce it on the oboe and then let it resolve before omitting the oboe.

    My point is simple; four part isn't very useful. The little tricks and tips and concepts that filtered into my brain, however, are massively useful. They've shaped the way I can compose and whilst I don't believe you need to learn four part for two years or something, I do reading a few books, practicing a few Bach Chorales and paying attention to why composers break rules is important.

    It can be compared to any other art form with good results really. Why do we read Shakespeare? Absolutely useless by today's standards; nobody reads or writes like that. If you want to paint like Pollock or Bacon do Hirst do you need to study the Renaissance artistic style? Do you need to study at all?

    The strict answer is no, but the real answer is more subtle. You don't NEED to, but you really should. You learn to express yourself by challenging expression itself. If you're rebelling against four part, or feel it doesn't suit your compositions, you can only really make sense of that rebellion when you know WHY it doesn't. I can hear a piece these days, like the 'Hobbiton' theme from Lord of the Rings for example, and instantly understand why it was harmonised the way it did; why it matters texturally, why it has to be that way. It's because the block-chording technique, with lots of 5ths and open movement, sounds more ancient, somehow more stoic and timeless. I feel I only really understand this because I've had the opportunity to study it.

    So, to the four-part naysayers I say; just learn the basics. Know what a consonance and a dissonance and a resolution and preparation is. You probably won't ever think in those terms when you compose but you'll be surprised how quickly you start realising why your melody has to take a certain direction, and subconsciously understanding how your harmony can support it. You'll probably deviate a lot in your work, but it's so much better being able to say "stuff four part, it doesn't suit my needs here" than saying "this probably works...". Sure, you can be an amazing composer with no real theoretical knowledge. But you can be an amazing composer who KNOWS they've done the best thing for their music with theoretical knowledge. I'm no expert, but sometimes I hear a piece of music and think "it's good, but there was something not as good as it could have been". You get a buzz when you've written a piece of music and truly made the decisions you've made in it; when to use voice leading, when to block chord, when to leave big open gaps, when to write dense chords, when to add a dominant 7th or a 9th, when to bring in that 11th or resolve to that major 7th instead of just the tonic. Doing a bit of light studying doesn't make you better or give you more options, it just allows you to make more informed decisions. You can always forget everything easily, but remembering everything is only possible for those who have taken a bit of time to learn from others before them...

  4. #54

    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by wbiro View Post
    That’s all fine in a copycat way, if you are not creating a sounds-like-John-Cage’ piece, for example (who ignored all conventions),
    John cage was the pupil of Arnold Schoenberg and as such should have studied all the preparations and resolutions of all the dissonnances in all the keys several times.
    Just try to read the theory of harmony of schoenberg
    This aside it was nice reading your post.

  5. #55
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    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    I really love wbiro's post. It says so much that it doesn't actually say... Can I possibly be more nebulous?

    In every field of endeavor, whether art or science, there is a certain foundation of knowledge that every practitioner must master in order to demonstrate that he (or she!) knows what they are doing. Even if you're just going to be a music critic, you must know four-part writing. And if you have in mind that you want to break all the "rules" you must first know exactly what those "rules" are, and you have to know them inside and out like the back of your hand.

    Four-part writing has to be drilled into your head until you know it subconsciously if you want to be a serious composer. All this talk about "forgetting" about it after the courses is hogwash, in my humble opinion, because it is not forgotten -- it may not be used, but it will never be forgotten until all areas of music, including all forms of popular music like pop, rock and so on completely abandon it, and that does not appear to be anywhere in sight for at least the next 200 years or more into the future, if even then.

    There is somewhat of a dichotomy here, because all of the popular forms of music as I just mentioned are based on four-part writing, whereas what we call "serious" music did, in fact, abandon it in the early 20th century. That said, what do you hear when you go to a public recital or concert? You might hear something Cage-like or Schoenberg-like or any of a number of truly bizarre pieces, but the paying public who support the arts and music in particular are not going to leave that recital or concert satisfied unless and until they hear something "tonal," which is just another word for four-part writing theory. Those bizarre pieces, many of which are fascinating and interesting, but rarely communicative with the public, are going to sandwiched in between tonal works that the musically untrained public loves to hear and can relate to. There appears to be something timeless about tonal music such that it will never truly disappear. You will probably never hear an uneducated garage mechanic talking about the intricacies of dodecaphony or the various directions in which post-tonal music has ventured into. But you take that same garage mechanic to a concert full of rousing patriotic tonal music, and you just may see tears coming out of his eyes when the flag of his (or her) country is presented.

    Tonal music reaches directly into the human heart like no other music has ever done in Western civilizations. Now it is reaching into the Eastern civilizations as well, and you may sometimes run into a Buddhist monk listening avidly to his favorite selections from Tchaikovsky or Rimsky-Korsakov (more probably R-K, and if so, more probably Scherezade). There is something about music that is timelessly appealing when it comes to four-part writing because of its direct impact on the human heart like nothing else. Humans thrive on the contrasts between tension and release, conflict and resolution, which is essentially what four-part writing teaches and is the foundation of all forms of entertainment. A movie would be extremely boring if it were just a constant barrage of indecipherable and unintelligible language. That does not mean the language is not intelligible -- obviously it was or it would not have been written into the script. But if there is no contrast between good and evil or cops and robbers or anything along those lines, people would not go to see such movies. They don't want to be bored to death...

    Music that has to be explained to people before they can understand and appreciate it limits you to a very small audience of true admirers, and you have to face that fact boldly if you are going to chart new waters with your inventiveness. All musically educated professional musicians are going to know what you're talking about when you mention the 12-tone system. Everyone else is going to say, "Huh?" and give you blank stare. But if you mention the music for the latest "Star Wars" movie, they will know instantly what you are talking about. Non-tonal music has great usage in the movie industry, but in movies, it is never the music that is paramount, but the action on the silver screen. The music has to support what is going on on the screen, and many kinds of non-tonal music can be used to evoke emotions in an audience, but only if it supports what they can see is going on in the movie visually. Separate that non-tonal music from the movie and you instantly destroy its ability to communicate with an audience. In the case of movies, the visual aspect far overshadows the musical. The music divorced from the image is dead.

    I could go on and on in this same vein for ages, so I'll cut to the bottom line. If you choose to ignore the lessons of voice-leading, parallel fifths, resolution of suspended fourths, and all the other aspects of four-part writing, your true admirers will be a very small circle. It is not a bad thing in and of itself, but music that is only comprehensible to a small circle of people also limits its audience. If that's your thing, by all means do it. But first learn four-part writing so you can at least understand the rules you are breaking.

    This doesn't make for a very good post, meaning that what I have said so far is like tilting at windmills, and I'm too tired to continue. If anyone can make sense out of what I'm saying, have at it. If not, then please don't hold it against me... just tell me there's no fool like an old fool!

    I'm tired now...

    Arvid
    Arvid Hand
    Theory-Comp./Piano
    ASCAP

  6. #56

    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    You are studying four part of harmony and in that you learn how to write for voice. you have to learn many more part in writing then you have to develop your own skill. I think it is going to very useful in next.

  7. #57
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    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    Studying traditional harmony and boring old part-writing (voice-leading) is like learning to draw before becoming a painter or sculptor. It forces you to pay extreme and detailed attention to detail, and it makes you develop fine control over your materials.

    Consider Picasso. A casual glance at his works suggests he couldn't "really" draw, that is, he couldn't look at an object in real life and produce a near-photographic reproduction of it on paper using only a pencil. But in fact he could, as all real artists can, because that is part of their basic training. In the two-dimensional arts I believe it is called 'drafting' or 'rendering.' The painful drudgery of learning to do it has the final excellent result that the hand is able to produce any image seen in the mind, no matter how fantastic. (Look up "Mystery of Picasso" on Youtube to see sections of this famous film wherein Picasso paints on camera; this is an excellent illustration, so to speak, of a completely trained hand executing orginal visions, with assured technical mastery based in part on thorough traditional training.)

    The same is true of music. Mastery of the basic materials means that the composer will be able to put the music he hears in his head into some form that can be communicated to the world. Furthermore, command over the materials means that the composer will be better able to deal with difficulties, clunky bits, surprise infiltrations of inexplicable tastelessness, episodes of lack of inspiration, bad colds, and so on.

  8. #58
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    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    I've just come across this thread again and thought I should add something since this was wrote so long ago.

    I have spent many years blocked by this idea of trying to relate all music I have tried to analyse or compose back to strict 4-part writing. I was, of course, never able to do this. The impression I was given from all the harmony books I have studies was that there was an objective and direct link between the apparent "surface" of the music and an underlying strict 4 part chorale frame work.

    The implication being that if your were to compose in any kind of rational manner, as opposed to divine and immaculate conception, you would need to begin with this frame work and work "outward" from it using the same tools to reduce the music to strict 4 part writing but in reverse. I could never, of course, ever really get this to work.

    What no teacher or anybody was ever really willing to tell me(or at least really stick to their guns) about this is that it is just flat wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Even in this thread all i was ever really given was fuzzy metaphors and analogies about how we absorb some kind of ineffable knowledge that spills out over our own compositions or appeals to the fact that the masters did it so so should we, which really amount to nothing but decelerations of blind faith.

    The truth is that strict 4-part harmony as an analytical or compositional method is of virtually no value at all. To try to use these reasons as a justification is just a non starter. Textures other than strict 4-part such as the free textures of keyboard pieces simply do not adherer to the rules of strict 4 part writing and to try to see them as such by leaping through lots of analytical hoops is just a waste of time.

    So once this idea had been truly defeated in my mind I was(at last) free to compose and analyse with a clear conscience. This problem has, however, sucked a lot of intellectual energy out of me and kept me in a kind of creative prison for a long time.

    So looking back, now that I can see strict 4-part harmony for what it is not, what do I see that it is? Well, I can see a link can be made between a lot of music and 4-part harmony but this link is only subjective, a suggestion. There is no clear objective link that runs between composition and analytical(or compositional) framework. As such the link can only really run one way, and, as such, is of no real practical use as a compositional method.

    The strict limitations of 4 part harmony also create a nice neat and well defined area of knowledge for students to learn and teachers to asses (the ease of assessment of a pedagogical system should never be overlooked when considering the reasons for its use). This allows you to apply the harmony you are learning without needing to worry about texture or arrangement.

    What this boils down to is that strict 4 part writing is just a nice and simple textural constraint that allows you to concentrate on learning harmony. This is a far cry for the assertions made in the texts that all music is at it's core strict 4 part harmony.

    The down side of this is that little if no attention is given to the study of how harmony works outside of this simple texture, where things are not so... simple. The danger is that you try to carry these restraints on texture over to other textures as if they were as much a part of harmony as anything else you have learnt.

    The truth is that you have to disregard everything about the constraints of strict 4 part writing and learn to apply the fundamental knowledge or harmony to the music you wish to understand or compose from anew. The value of strict 4-part writing in this process can only be at best of very limited value and at worst a hindrance.

    So in the end I see 4 part writing not such much as of no value then as of dubious value. Harmony could be learnt just as well, if not better and faster, without it. If it is to be used, however, I think clear and rational justification should be given for its use and not the fuzzy metaphorical and allegorical ones that often come pouring out(which i think betray a lack of understanding of the reasons for its study in the first place).

    For those of you who still want to cling to Mr. Miyagi "wax on wax off" attitude to this or for those of you who just love the idea of "the way of the masters" I'm not really sure what else can be said.

    But in the end I'm not really mad, I'm just disappointed.

  9. #59
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    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    Consider Picasso. A casual glance at his works suggests he couldn't "really" draw, that is, he couldn't look at an object in real life and produce a near-photographic reproduction of it on paper using only a pencil. But in fact he could, as all real artists can, because that is part of their basic training. In the two-dimensional arts I believe it is called 'drafting' or 'rendering.' The painful drudgery of learning to do it has the final excellent result that the hand is able to produce any image seen in the mind, no matter how fantastic. (Look up "Mystery of Picasso" on Youtube to see sections of this famous film wherein Picasso paints on camera; this is an excellent illustration, so to speak, of a completely trained hand executing orginal visions, with assured technical mastery based in part on thorough traditional training.)
    BTW the idea that you need to be able to draw to be a "real artist" died along, long time ago.

  10. #60
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    Re: Studying four part harmony is a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bionicbub View Post
    I really love wbiro's post. It says so much that it doesn't actually say... Can I possibly be more nebulous?

    In every field of endeavor, whether art or science, there is a certain foundation of knowledge that every practitioner must master in order to demonstrate that he (or she!) knows what they are doing. Even if you're just going to be a music critic, you must know four-part writing. And if you have in mind that you want to break all the "rules" you must first know exactly what those "rules" are, and you have to know them inside and out like the back of your hand.

    Four-part writing has to be drilled into your head until you know it subconsciously if you want to be a serious composer. All this talk about "forgetting" about it after the courses is hogwash, in my humble opinion, because it is not forgotten -- it may not be used, but it will never be forgotten until all areas of music, including all forms of popular music like pop, rock and so on completely abandon it, and that does not appear to be anywhere in sight for at least the next 200 years or more into the future, if even then.

    There is somewhat of a dichotomy here, because all of the popular forms of music as I just mentioned are based on four-part writing, whereas what we call "serious" music did, in fact, abandon it in the early 20th century. That said, what do you hear when you go to a public recital or concert? You might hear something Cage-like or Schoenberg-like or any of a number of truly bizarre pieces, but the paying public who support the arts and music in particular are not going to leave that recital or concert satisfied unless and until they hear something "tonal," which is just another word for four-part writing theory. Those bizarre pieces, many of which are fascinating and interesting, but rarely communicative with the public, are going to sandwiched in between tonal works that the musically untrained public loves to hear and can relate to. There appears to be something timeless about tonal music such that it will never truly disappear. You will probably never hear an uneducated garage mechanic talking about the intricacies of dodecaphony or the various directions in which post-tonal music has ventured into. But you take that same garage mechanic to a concert full of rousing patriotic tonal music, and you just may see tears coming out of his eyes when the flag of his (or her) country is presented.

    Tonal music reaches directly into the human heart like no other music has ever done in Western civilizations. Now it is reaching into the Eastern civilizations as well, and you may sometimes run into a Buddhist monk listening avidly to his favorite selections from Tchaikovsky or Rimsky-Korsakov (more probably R-K, and if so, more probably Scherezade). There is something about music that is timelessly appealing when it comes to four-part writing because of its direct impact on the human heart like nothing else. Humans thrive on the contrasts between tension and release, conflict and resolution, which is essentially what four-part writing teaches and is the foundation of all forms of entertainment. A movie would be extremely boring if it were just a constant barrage of indecipherable and unintelligible language. That does not mean the language is not intelligible -- obviously it was or it would not have been written into the script. But if there is no contrast between good and evil or cops and robbers or anything along those lines, people would not go to see such movies. They don't want to be bored to death...

    Music that has to be explained to people before they can understand and appreciate it limits you to a very small audience of true admirers, and you have to face that fact boldly if you are going to chart new waters with your inventiveness. All musically educated professional musicians are going to know what you're talking about when you mention the 12-tone system. Everyone else is going to say, "Huh?" and give you blank stare. But if you mention the music for the latest "Star Wars" movie, they will know instantly what you are talking about. Non-tonal music has great usage in the movie industry, but in movies, it is never the music that is paramount, but the action on the silver screen. The music has to support what is going on on the screen, and many kinds of non-tonal music can be used to evoke emotions in an audience, but only if it supports what they can see is going on in the movie visually. Separate that non-tonal music from the movie and you instantly destroy its ability to communicate with an audience. In the case of movies, the visual aspect far overshadows the musical. The music divorced from the image is dead.

    I could go on and on in this same vein for ages, so I'll cut to the bottom line. If you choose to ignore the lessons of voice-leading, parallel fifths, resolution of suspended fourths, and all the other aspects of four-part writing, your true admirers will be a very small circle. It is not a bad thing in and of itself, but music that is only comprehensible to a small circle of people also limits its audience. If that's your thing, by all means do it. But first learn four-part writing so you can at least understand the rules you are breaking.

    This doesn't make for a very good post, meaning that what I have said so far is like tilting at windmills, and I'm too tired to continue. If anyone can make sense out of what I'm saying, have at it. If not, then please don't hold it against me... just tell me there's no fool like an old fool!

    I'm tired now...

    Arvid
    Throughout this post you seem to be making the mistake of conflating strict 4 part texture with tonality. Do you really think they are the same thing?

    Also, most popular music is based on strict 4-part chorale writing? Where on earth do you get that idea?

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