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Topic: Panning

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  1. #1

    Panning

    Hey guys, hope you all had a safe 4th.

    I've just gotten back to working with GOP and am trying to find out how to get Sonar to tell GOP to pan.

    I've read the manual but it is for the the earlier Kontakt player and I'm using the Kontakt 2 player.

    What I want to do is change the panning from the mixer in Sonar. There are many times I want to change where the instruments are coming from.

    Thanks for any help!
    Earl Green

  2. #2

    Re: Panning

    I believe it was audio guru and all-'round good guy DPDAN advised me, rightly so, to center all of the KP2 pan settings and then render the audio out that way (whether mono or stereo). THEN pan the resulting audio (not the MIDI) in SONAR.

    Additionally I was talking to someone in the SONAR forum and they suggested using the surround panner in a 2 speaker mode (actually 2.1) They said it seemed like the pan was more accurate or something. I played with it a bit and really couldn't tell much difference but maybe I didn't mess with it enough.

    I've had very good success with DPDAN's methods. Find him on these boards and ask him directly. He and Randy Bowser are my "go-to" guys when I have questions like this.

    Good luck!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  3. #3

    Re: Panning

    Panning works fine in Sonar with GPO and Kontakt 2. However, it is switched off by default in every instrument. You need to go into Kontakt and go to the instrument options (don't have my DAW in front of me to confirm the options name) for every loaded instance of an instrument. There is a page with check boxes that include "allow MIDI controlled panning" or something to that effect. Check the box, and Sonar's track panning settings (including pan envelopes) will work fine.

    What I ended up doing was resaving every instrument after making this adjustment, so that when I load in new instances, the setting is already where I want it.

    If you still have trouble, I'll look for the exact dialog box and wording when I'm in my studio this evening.
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

  4. #4

    Re: Panning

    Thanks for the nod, Reegs - I do what I can!

    Oh--Skysaw joined in right as I pushed the "Reply" button.

    OK then you're getting good input, earlwgreen. I think maybe there's a basic part of your question that hasn't been addressed yet though.

    To go over what's been said - in case there's any confusion:

    Reegs is passing on DPDAN's good advice to pan instruments to center in KP2, then after recording your MIDI tracks to Audio, you have signals which can be panned wherever you want in your project.

    I thought maybe you weren't sure where the panning controls are in Sonar. In the mixer, or the channel strip for each track which appears at the left in the Track View, for every Audio track is a panning control in the center. You can move that right to left as needed. If you ever have need for an instrument to move during a piece--(rare--but sometimes needed, especially in pop music) - like everything else on those audio channel strips, you can right click and choose the option to record automation for the control.

    But what Skysaw is talking about is MIDI panning, which is different. He's one of the folks who like to do all that sort of control in the MIDI realm. So even though he's not at his DAW, he sketched in what he does - The options for KP2 instruments to be controlled by traditional cc7 for volume and cc10 for panning has to be turned on in KP2. Then the MIDI strips in Sonar will respond to the controls. That's certainly one way to do it - A bit more complicated perhaps, and the rendered audio will be limited by the settings already done in the MIDI realm.

    I'm with Dan in finding it much more straight forward to keep panning and the various volume levels for mixing in the Audio realm. I routinely set my Sonar screen so that I don't even see the MIDI channels in my mixer, since they're doing nothing--It's the Audio channels I'm interested in, and those are the controls I use.

    Oh my---I think I made things confusing. - This thread just jumped off into two different directions, talking about two different things--MIDI panning and Audio panning--I felt I needed to explain that there's a difference, since it was brought up.

    ----Check back with us if we've muddled it for you or not.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Panning

    Both methods are perfectly valid, and I have complete respect for the audio panning camp.

    One reason I do it in MIDI is that with some of my less traditional music, I use the pan in a more creative fashion, and like to use automated track envelopes to control spatial movement, since they are very easy to adjust while you are putting a piece together.

    The other plus for me is due to my workflow. I like to do a little mixing during the composition process, though I am likely in a tiny minority in this respect. I like the freedom of being able to tweak anything I like instantly without freezing tracks or doing track renders in-between, but that also means you have to have a fairly powerful machine to run everything in real time.

    To sum up, it's a matter of taste, but you have two viable options here.
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

  6. #6

    Re: Panning

    Howdy, Jamie - Absolutely right, that both approaches are equally valid.

    I used to do all my panning in MIDI, and that was when I was still working with hardware synths and the basic concept was to have "virtual tracks" playing along with analog tracks of vocals, guitars, live piano etc. None of my MIDI was recorded to audio in those days. All effects and mixing elements like volume control and panning were done strictly through MIDI and went straight to the master 2-track.

    It was when I finally transitioned into using computers that I realized I was interested in developing audio tracks from my MIDI players, so that I end up with audio tracks just like any engineer would who has recorded an ensemble of live musicians. And so, following that model, my approach has been to record dry, bare bones tracks via MIDI input, and then do all the other things, panning included, in the Audio realm.

    BUT---oh man, I hope this isn't confusing things for you, earlwgreen, - Jamie, I'm not sure you realize that the things you listed as reasons you like to do it in MIDI can also be done via Audio before any tracks are actually rendered to wave files.

    "...like to use automated track envelopes to control spatial movement, since they are very easy to adjust while you are putting a piece together..."

    That can be done on the "empty" audio tracks which are providing the audio outs for the soft synths. I prefer to do envelope work on a wave file where I can actually See all the hills and valleys of the sound, but a lot of people do Audio automation right there on the blank soft synth audio track before they bounce to wave files.

    Get this - I hadn't ever used MIDI envelopes in the way you're describing, Jamie, until super recently when someone was talking about them here.

    But anyway, - I just wanted to point out that actually what you're doing with the envelopes can be done in audio before rendering!

    A bit of "pre-mixing," as you described, can also be done the same way in real time without working only with the MIDI data. Interesting hm?

    As you can see, Earl - as with everything in the home studio world, there are always several ways to accomplish things. Hope you got the basics about panning though, since that was your question?

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Panning

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    That can be done on the "empty" audio tracks which are providing the audio outs for the soft synths. I prefer to do envelope work on a wave file where I can actually See all the hills and valleys of the sound, but a lot of people do Audio automation right there on the blank soft synth audio track before they bounce to wave files.
    It's a good point, but this still puts a damper on my workflow, since I like to group a few instruments together in one instance and pan them individually. I would need a separate instance for every single instrument for that level of control, and I find that bothersome. For example, I always use only one instance for flutes and piccolo, but pan each slightly differently. I sometimes will even group all flutes and clarinets into one instance, putting all oboes and bassoons into another.

    Or maybe I'm missing something?
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

  8. #8

    Re: Panning

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Thanks for the nod, Reegs - I do what I can!
    Well, I can accept the new name, but I think someone's already using it!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  9. #9

    Re: Panning

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    As you can see, Earl - as with everything in the home studio world, there are always several ways to accomplish things.

    Randy
    and then there is how I do it which I will not go into at this time just because.
    Producer ~ Sound Engineer ~ Musician

    http://www.myspace.com/451525581

  10. #10

    Re: Panning

    Quote Originally Posted by reberclark View Post
    Well, I can accept the new name, but I think someone's already using it!
    LOL! ARrrrgh--Sorry Reber--Reebs, Reegs - I KNEw who I was talking to, my typing fingers didn't connect with what I meant. Don't you hate when that happens?

    And hello again, Jamie--oh man, did I get THat name right? I think so!

    You ended your last post with, "...or maybe I'm missing something?..."

    Yeah, - I see you are, but I'm not sure what it is you're missing. Let me quote the rest and try to answer:

    "...It's a good point, but this still puts a damper on my workflow, since I like to group a few instruments together in one instance and pan them individually. I would need a separate instance for every single instrument for that level of control, and I find that bothersome. For example, I always use only one instance for flutes and piccolo, but pan each slightly differently. I sometimes will even group all flutes and clarinets into one instance, putting all oboes and bassoons into another..."

    Working with audio the way I've been talking about--either the audio tracks carrying the soft synth signals, or audio tracks holding rendered wave forms - that doesn't effect anything you're talking about there.

    I load my KP2 instances up to 16 and then add more as needed. Separate control for every instrument. I understand you want to group instruments of a group into one KP2--OK--I group them inside the Sonar mixer to accomplish the same thing.

    But this isn't correct at all that you would need to use a separate KP2 for each instrument - !

    OOOOKAY---I think we're back into the KP2 confusion which has been covered on a number of threads recently. It sounds like you're having your instruments in KP2 all squeezing into one audio out--when there are 16 stereo channels available. The way you're working, you're unable to change the balance of your groups in Sonar, because they're all on one audio channel! Oh no.

    Each instrument is assigned its own stereo out--and then those KP2 channels have individual matching channels in Sonar. ANd as I hope you can see, that would mean you have total control over everything.

    I could go on--But if I'm correct, and you don't have your KP2 configured correctly, I'll look for the in-depth thread about all this that came up in the last month.

    Randy

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