• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Topic: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    This is a question for DPDAN and Randy Bowser (The Dan and Ran' Show!)

    When working with the 16out method in KP2, with all sound sources (GPO, JABB etc) centered and volumes (in KP2) boosted to as near 0db as possible, then bounced to audio tracks - do you then normalize those audio tracks to maximize your premix volumes?

    Thanks.
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  2. #2

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    hehehe, keeping that "Dan and Ran Show" concept alive, I like it! - I just now had the image of the show being like on Siskel and Ebert, with the two hosts adding to the discussion, but not necessarily always in agreement.

    Quick answer - No. The beginning of the mix for me really does begin in the MIDI realm, but only in a rudimentary way, since so much more control over the balances can happen in the Audio realm. And so I'll have some tracks that bounced down a bit softer than others, and I want to keep that.

    I start the Audio mixer with faders about half way down, so I have plenty of head room. Then of course begins a long process of automating the faders, using both real-time automation and volume envelopes.

    If I had everything Normalized and virtually at the same level, whatever balance I had going on in the MIDI tracks would be lost.

    And a lot of people find Normalization objectionable just in general, thinking it hurts the quality of the sound.

    I predict that Dan doesn't like Normalization and might have some strong opinions on the subject.

    BUT - there are times when I've Normalized sections of a track which just got too wimpy. AND when I do the finishing work in Sound Forge, fixing up the master, I'll usually Normalized that master track. Usually by that point it doesn't change the shape of the wave file too much, if at all, because the track is already at such a good volume level.

    OK, that's about it from me. Dan?--care to weigh in?

    Thanks for the question Reber.

    Keep those cards and letters coming folks. Maybe we'll read YOUR question on our show!

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    Okay thanks! I began working in the new (to me) 16out system in much the same way - only normalizing if the track needed a boost. I found that when using SFZ and Cakewalk TTS-1 I have have to boost the volume of the audio a bit, but the Garritan sounds and others (samBrass, Symphobia etc) I haven't had to.

    I, for one, would love to hear a Dan and Ran show - maybe a podcast?
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  4. #4

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    thank you! thank you Randy!

    Randy knows me well I don't normalize. As Randy said,
    a section of a particular track can be really low, in DP I use a plugin called "Trim" it is just like a trim section on a real mixing console. It is the first portion of the mixer where audio enters the console. Ideally, the "level", "gain", "trim" is adjusted to maximize the level going further downstream to the console's buses, aux sends, channel faders etc. You always want the trim set so that the level is good and solid, but always a tad lower than you think, this way of setting the gain within a safety margin provides some "headroom".

    If you told the instrumentalist to play his/her loudest passage, that is usually the best way to maximize the level, no surprises that way. In the old days, I recorded a vocalist into two separate tracks, with gain set realistically, then a second one set a little lower, in case the vocalist overdrives the mic preamp or console input, all I have to do is crossfade to the "other" track and there I have the same take but with less gain and most likely no distortion. None of that is necessary anymore because with digital audio, we are not fighting with noise from tape and other analog devices.

    Anyway, in this trim section of the console, we find a gain adjustment knob, a high-pass filter (low filter) for popping P's B's T's eSSes etc., and a phase switch. Some really nice consoles have the phase adjustable by a knob that allows the engineer to adjust anywhere from zero to 360 degrees phase, instead of a switch that reverses phase 180 degrees. Sometime we should talk about phase in a separate topic, of course that would have to be another show.

    DP's trim plugin can be seen in this short tutorial....and it is what I use to increase excessively soft passages, and since I am an automation freak, it is often automated too. BUT, in this tutorial, I am actually burning the trim settings into the sound-bite, as opposed to inserting the trim plugin into the audio track in the mixing board.

    WINDOWS

    MAC

    A special thanks goes to Jack Cannon, AKA Rhap2 for his piano piece used in the toot.
    Dan

  5. #5

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    Dan - I wish you knew Logic so you could show examples for it. I've still learned a lot from your DP ones though. Knowing you, and how much you like to help I am seriously considering switching to DP even though I love Logic. I've seen a lot of things that DP seems better at and you are about as good as it gets with this type of stuff.

    Watch out, Apple might come after you.
    -Keith Fuller

    http://keithfullermusic.com
    ---
    iMac Quad i7 * MacBook Pro * Logic Studio 9 * WD 320GB & 1TB Externals@7,200RPM * Presonus Firebox * M-Audio Axiom 25 & Keystation 61 * Rode NT1-A * Epiphone Hollowbody * Fender Amp * KRK Rokit 8's

  6. #6

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    Ya know...SONAR has a trim and I always forget to use it. It's at the very top of each channel strip. Thanks Dan! The Dan and Ran Show has launched!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  7. #7

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    "...Ya know...SONAR has a trim and I always forget to use it. It's at the very top of each channel strip..."

    That's right, Reber - But it's one of the few things in the Sonar mixer which you can't automate. Those trim controls are exactly like on hardware mixers where you try to balance the relative inputs of mikes and instruments so there isn't a huge disparity between the signals.

    What Dan shows in his tute is a bit different since he's using a plugin not directly strapped to the channel strips. In this example, he applies the plugin's effect to the clip.

    The Sonar tool more analagous to the Trim plugin Dan used in DP is the Gain control. Under Process, Audio, choose Gain. There you can change a selected clip's volume and then apply the effect, "burn" it to that clip.

    I'll pass on a useful thing about the Trim pots back in the Console View, Reber. Sometimes when I'm in the middle of a mixing project, I'll have a lot of volume automation in my tracks, but a basic balance between instruments/tracks still isn't quite right. Instead of erasing automation and starting over, I'll use the Trim pots to either boost or tame a track which isn't sitting correctly with the others. Works great - and it's not a "destructive" edit, it's just an extra volume control on the strips.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    The Sonar tool more analagous to the Trim plugin Dan used in DP is the Gain control. Under Process, Audio, choose Gain. There you can change a selected clip's volume and then apply the effect, "burn" it to that clip...Instead of erasing automation and starting over, I'll use the Trim pots to either boost or tame a track which isn't sitting correctly with the others. Works great - and it's not a "destructive" edit, it's just an extra volume control on the strips.

    Randy
    I've used the Gain control before - it works nicely, and, yes, using the Trim to help a track "sit" better is very useful! I had just completely forgotten about them. So many knobs! So little time!
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

    http://reberclark.blogspot.com http://reberclark.bandcamp.com http://www.youtube.com/reberclark

  9. #9

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    ooooooh, im going to have to phone in to the "Dan and Ran Show" to disagree with a small statement made by Randy.



    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Quick answer - No. The beginning of the mix for me really does begin in the MIDI realm, but only in a rudimentary way, since so much more control over the balances can happen in the Audio realm. And so I'll have some tracks that bounced down a bit softer than others, and I want to keep that.


    Randy
    Um, im thinking, no?! You can control balances in midi just as easily and with as much flexibility as you can audio, as all pluggins and processors you may use on a audio track are available for use on a midi track. The ONLY exception to that is the normalise function, which the show's presenters both agree to using as little of as possible in a normal mixing situation. If you need to up the average RMS of a midi track then simple do a quick bounce of it to audio, scan the audio for loudest point, then return to midi track and up its volume the difference between its loudest point and 0dB. This way you still have the ability to edit the midi as necessary. Alternatively careful use of a compressor can raise a track, and provide extra warmth/softness as necessary.

    Other than that disagreement, great show, really enjoy the broadcast! How much are tickets to the recordings? And who wrote the opening and credits music?

  10. #10

    Re: A Question for the Dan and Ran' Show!

    Hiya, Ben - Thanks for tuning into the show!

    There's no reason to think this is a disagreement that you laid out here. As with everything we do, there's more than one way to skin the musical cat.

    You understand more about the workings of MIDI and Audio than a lot of folks. What I was referring to was how it's limiting to keep our dynamic control PURELy in the MIDI realm. What you described was working with MIDI and Audio - it's not a "pure MIDI" situation you laid out. A lot of people use plugins and do things with the "empty" audio tracks which are the sound conduits for the MIDI instruments, the way you do. I do that some, but save most of my Audio editing work for when I have wave forms which I can see and "feel" in the mixer.

    Some people tend to remain stuck with the 0 to 127 volume range of MIDI, and that's limiting. If they would use Audio faders judiciously, either before bouncing or after, they add that much more dynamic range to their project. It's from not taking advantage of audio work that makes a lot of MIDI projects seem more lifeless than they need to.

    That's what I was referring to. And like I said, we're not in disagreement. We're working different ways!

    Randy

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •