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Topic: Resonance on D1 note

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  1. #1

    Resonance on D1 note

    I just purchased the basic edition and I noticed a resonance when playing D1 (also in Db1 but not as loud as D1). It's like a ringing sound (mid frequency usually heard at the note decay). This also happens even when both sustain resonance and sympathetic resonance are off.
    I searched the forum but couldn't find anything on this and it's kind of strange it wasn't noticed before. The only way of minimizing it is playing the note at low velocity. I'm using the 1.03 basic version.
    Any comments on this?

    Regards

  2. #2

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Did you maybe mean the E1 note? Most of the notes in the low bass naturally have unique resonances, but I didn't find the D1 to subjectively stand out. The overtones of the D1 seem to favor the third slightly (5th harmonic in the overtone series), but even after listening intently I don't think I'd want to adjust it. [edit- if I play the D1 at around f dynamic, it stands out quite a bit more. Around a third + two or three octaves is the overtone partial that I hear... I think this all might just be the unique quirks of the bass strings though]
    In contrast the F1 overtones seem to favor the fifth (3rd harmonic) but again it seems fine to me, and a pleasant distinctiveness. The E1 is perhaps borderline for whether I might choose to adjust it- if I listen intently to it, the overtones favor a high harmonic which seems to be about a minor second. [edit - then again, this only seems to stand out to me at ff or louder dynamic, and again it may be a symptom of the natural (and desirable?) uniqueness in the bass strings]. My guess is that it's actually the 4th or 8th harmonic (octave harmonics) but due to the huge inharmonicity that's always going on in the bass strings (sharpness of the harmonics), its frequency location may be closer to the minor second than octave. You can hear the same thing going on in the C1, it's just not so pronounced, and to my ear the C1 rings very nicely.
    In any event, for any and all strings, what you hear is what was present in the actual acoustic piano. I'm always hesitant to try to 'improve' on what the technician at the sessions did, since that's my reference point on how the piano sounds in its very best state. However the flip side is that there are physical limits that a technician is faced with, which don't limit me - so if I have good reason to believe the technician would have changed something if it were possible, I'd change it. I think it's possible, though not certain, that E1 might be under the category - for example it might have been that the technician ideally would have chosen to replace the string, if he'd had an extra string available for that note.
    Anyway, could you confirm it was the D1 you meant?

  3. #3

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hurchalla View Post
    Did you maybe mean the E1 note? Most of the notes in the low bass naturally have unique resonances, but I didn't find the D1 to subjectively stand out. The overtones of the D1 seem to favor the third slightly (5th harmonic in the overtone series), but even after listening intently I don't think I'd want to adjust it. [edit- if I play the D1 at around f dynamic, it stands out quite a bit more. Around a third + two or three octaves is the overtone partial that I hear... I think this all might just be the unique quirks of the bass strings though]
    In contrast the F1 overtones seem to favor the fifth (3rd harmonic) but again it seems fine to me, and a pleasant distinctiveness. The E1 is perhaps borderline for whether I might choose to adjust it- if I listen intently to it, the overtones favor a high harmonic which seems to be about a minor second. [edit - then again, this only seems to stand out to me at ff or louder dynamic, and again it may be a symptom of the natural (and desirable?) uniqueness in the bass strings]. My guess is that it's actually the 4th or 8th harmonic (octave harmonics) but due to the huge inharmonicity that's always going on in the bass strings (sharpness of the harmonics), its frequency location may be closer to the minor second than octave. You can hear the same thing going on in the C1, it's just not so pronounced, and to my ear the C1 rings very nicely.
    In any event, for any and all strings, what you hear is what was present in the actual acoustic piano. I'm always hesitant to try to 'improve' on what the technician at the sessions did, since that's my reference point on how the piano sounds in its very best state. However the flip side is that there are physical limits that a technician is faced with, which don't limit me - so if I have good reason to believe the technician would have changed something if it were possible, I'd change it. I think it's possible, though not certain, that E1 might be under the category - for example it might have been that the technician ideally would have chosen to replace the string, if he'd had an extra string available for that note.
    Anyway, could you confirm it was the D1 you meant?
    I wonder if there are different notes that have problems depending on the system that a person uses. The problem notes on various forum entries that I have read during the past year were never the notes that I have trouble with. In this case, I get a ringing similar to what has been described by boten with Basic on D5. I had to add a very narrow EQ modification at 7700Hz of -24.0 to tame it down. However, on D1, I do not get any ringing. I have had problems with the Standard version with some notes, but they are never the same notes that other people report.

    Is it possible that the way the sound is generated could give different aberrations with different systems?

    Nick

  4. #4

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Quote Originally Posted by NickC View Post
    I wonder if there are different notes that have problems depending on the system that a person uses. The problem notes on various forum entries that I have read during the past year were never the notes that I have trouble with. In this case, I get a ringing similar to what has been described by boten with Basic on D5. I had to add a very narrow EQ modification at 7700Hz of -24.0 to tame it down. However, on D1, I do not get any ringing. I have had problems with the Standard version with some notes, but they are never the same notes that other people report.

    Is it possible that the way the sound is generated could give different aberrations with different systems?

    Nick
    Thanks Jeff, for the detailed response. I do confirm is the D1 note (the one with fundamental at 73 Hz just to avoid confusion), and the ringing is so obvious that it can't be missed. I could potentially record a short clip to demonstrate it (but I don't know if this site supports attachments or uploading).
    In any case regarding the question whether this ringing issue at different notes has to do with the system, my personal opinion is that I don't think so. All in all the player should be reproducing the sample as is (and I'm talking about resonances of notes and not audio distortion) - digital audio file - I just played the D1 by itself and the ringing occurs, it is less obvious when played along with other mid frequency notes due to masking.
    I would be very much interested to figure that out, especially because we see similar effects for other users - even on different notes.
    Regards

  5. #5

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Hi, Boten!

    "...I don't know if this site supports attachments or uploading..."

    If you still would like to post a sample of what you're talking about, the Forum doesn't allow attachments or uploading, but you can still post audio the same way we do in The Listening Room. Upload your MP3 to SoundClick, Box, your own site, whatever you have available, then post the link.

    Randy B.

  6. #6

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Ah I was listening an octave lower than 73hz fundamental. I believe that usually D1 refers to the very first D, but various manufacturers decided to label notes without consistency, and hence the confusion.
    I really don't find much fault in this note I believe I know what you're talking about though. The note sounds fine if you hold it for a while, but if you play the note without holding for very long (staccato for example), the release sound seems like it has some ring in it. I can say with confidence nothing is happening in the release part that isn't happening in the main note when you let it play out. I think it's just that the particular character of this note doesn't blend as well into an exponential release as some other notes. To my tastes, this is somewhat nit-picking since I don't hear it as being problematic. But I do think I recognize what you posted.

    I did a quick edit for you of Basic's sfz file so as to avoid using that sample. Personally I don't like it as well as the original, and I don't advise for people in general to use this edit. Even so, I think you (boten) will prefer it since you hear that D standing out. Disclaimer: this is unsupported and if you use it, when you do an update of Basic it will very likely be overwritten . This is for your use right now - it may or may not be a good idea for you to re-apply this file, after an update. It is unsupported.
    That aside, if you choose to use the file, go to C:/Program Files/Garritan/Steinway/Programs and rename basic.sfz to basic_old.sfz, so that you have a backup you can revert to if necessary; and then go to http://jeffhurchalla.com/boten/ and download (choose save as..) basic.sfz from there; then copy the downloaded basic.sfz to C:/Program Files/Garritan/Steinway/Programs

  7. #7

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    With regard to the physical Steinway D we recorded, it's probably a good idea for me to give a little context. In this thread I've talked about notes in isolation under a microscope, but they're not played that way. Without that context it might seem like there were faults in the piano we recorded, which would be a bit misleading. The Steinway D we recorded was one of the pianos set aside after manufacture by Steinway for sounding particularly nice, and thereafter used for touring concert pianists. The technician was at the time teaching the best technicians at Steinway! So it's probably safe to say the piano was in good shape.
    Still it wasn't perfect, because there's no such thing as a piano that's perfect. The physical laws at work (inharmonicity just as one of many examples) require compromises. It's an artistic creation really since so much of it is a matter of good taste and craftsmanship. Add in moving parts, points of friction, variations in manufacture, and temperature and humidity variations and even a supposed best taste is going to be dependent on circumstances. And I suspect there's a fine line between slight imperfection and what makes something beautiful.

  8. #8

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Jeff, before I relate to your useful post let me express my appreciation for the outstanding support. I have been involved in several forums and I am a customer of several DAW/virtual instruments companies and this is way beyond everything I've seen.

    Secondly I would like to clarify that it's not my intention for nit picking. I myself have been playing real pianos for more than three decades and I understand completly how "non-perfect" a piano should sound. In my mind this virtual piano is the best sounding instrument I've owned and heard. And I sure own lots of them (I'm a "pianoholic" ).

    Regarding your edit, I will definitely take a look into it, however I lean towards keeping the instrument as natural as possible. I anyway appreciate the effort to address this matter in the most professional way.

    Regards

    Pablo

  9. #9

    Re: Resonance on D1 note

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hi, Boten!

    "...I don't know if this site supports attachments or uploading..."

    If you still would like to post a sample of what you're talking about, the Forum doesn't allow attachments or uploading, but you can still post audio the same way we do in The Listening Room. Upload your MP3 to SoundClick, Box, your own site, whatever you have available, then post the link.

    Randy B.
    Randy, good to hear from you again. I've looked at your recent work and it looks real great. Good luck to you!

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