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Topic: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

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  1. #1

    Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    Michiel

    I am seriously thinking about purchasing your new Estonia sample, but I have a question.

    I use GigaStudio almost only for real time piano playing, not for music production, so the problem that I describe below cannot be fixed in a sequencer.

    The problem that I have is that my midi keyboard does not produce midi values greater than aound 96. This means that I cannot trigger the loudest layer in many piano samples, although at least I can scale the velocity in Gigastudio 2.2 so as to get maximum volume.
    Some samples that I already have are structured rather simple so as to make it easy to solve this problem - samples like the East West ones - by editing the velocity map. Others - like the Trachtman Steinway - are harder to work with because of all the filtering that occurs to smooth the transition between layers. I gather your Estonia is like this.

    Is there any way that you could provide an articulation file for your estonia gigasample so that the loudest layer would be triggered on the many keyboards that don\'t produce midi values over 96. An articulation file that also included the so-called Trachtman adjustment for low midi values would be just what the Dr ordered.

    UndaGiga



  2. #2

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UndaGiga:
    Michiel


    Is there any way that you could provide an articulation file for your estonia gigasample so that the loudest layer would be triggered on the many keyboards that don\'t produce midi values over 96.
    UndaGiga

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, we can do that. I think it\'s fairly simple to adjust the overall velocity switching values to new ones that will accommodate your problem. As for your other question (re. filtering) I think there will have to be some tweaking done to get the same smooth changes at the new velocity values, but it can\'t be too much work. Just get started and send me an email privately and we\'ll work something out. Go to www.postaudiomedia.com for my address.
    Are there any midi keyboards that send out velocity values below 100 only? You might consider upgrading the keyboard ...
    Michiel Post

  3. #3

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michiel Post:
    I think it\'s fairly simple to adjust the overall velocity switching values to new ones that will accommodate your problem. As for your other question (re. filtering) I think there will have to be some tweaking done to get the same smooth changes at the new velocity values, but it can\'t be too much work.
    Are there any midi keyboards that send out velocity values below 100 only? You might consider upgrading the keyboard ...
    Michiel Post
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thanks for your offer Michiel.

    Yes, changing the velocity switching values is easy - it is the filtering that I haven\'t managed to understand. I\'ll contact you direct when I get the sample.

    As for Keyboards, I had the impression that many Yamaha keyboards won\'t produce midi values over 96. I have a GT1 which does this, and I have been told that the P80 has the same problem. I am reluctant to replace the GT1 because it has an authentic grand piano action.

    UndaGiga

  4. #4

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    I find the suggestion that Yamaha keynoards are sending midi values out of spec really hard to swallow. I know the original DX7 keyboard was infamous for this though.

    I have a friend in product development at Yamaha who I\'m waiting for a response from. Perhaps he can give us the good oil on the matter.

  5. #5

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    UndaGiga,

    How reliable is your information about the P80? I have considered buying a P80 because I like the heavy, realistic action. It would be a shame if it doesn\'t give the full range of MIDI-values.

    Anybody else who knows if the P80 will exceed 100 in velocity?

    (Sorry for straying from the issue, UndaGiga.)

    Hans

  6. #6

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    I confess that I have not tried this with a P80 myself, but I have been told this consistently in other music forums. It seems to be taken as given. Ask any P80 owner who uses it to drive midi software. But I also bet the factory won\'t admit it. I\'m not trying to make an anti-Yamaha point here. All my pianos and keyboards are Yamahas. But it\'s a problem that a lot of people have to deal with, me included.

    UndaGiga


  7. #7

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    Well, I\'ve just had a call back from my friend at Yamaha and he had some interesting info.

    According to Japan, the P80 DOES put out the full velocity range (0-127). but...

    It, and a couple of other of their keyboards are set up so that they can be used to control the Disklavier series pianos (the acoustic pianos with solenoid actions which can actually be played over midi).

    Apparently when you hit the Disklavier keyboard very hard you get a noticeable dynamic response from the acoustic piano, so they set the P80 up so that playing it with the same force makes the Disklavier respond in the same way as if you had used it\'s onboard keys.

    The result is that you have to really whack it to get 127. I\'m not sure of which models are set up this way.

    If you already have one, all I can suggest is:

    1.Ask Yamaha for a software update which provides alternate velocity curves which don\'t require as much force to achieve 127.

    2.Using the new version of Gst\'s software which provides programmable velocity curves, edit the instrument to respond to 0-96 as though it\'s 0-127. (not ideal I supppose)

    3.Get some kind of mapping happening in your sequencer which \'expands\' the velocity range which is incoming. I think Logic and Cubase may be capable of this kind of \'transform\' (again, not ideal as you\'re still starting with a \'restricted\' range for all practical purposes).


    Hope this makes some kind of sense...

  8. #8

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    Chadwick,

    Thanks for the info. I actually like when I have to hit really hard to reach 127. Maximum midi velocity at maximum physical velocity!

    Hans

  9. #9

    Re: Question for Michiel Post re Estonia

    I\'m not surprised that the factory woud say this, and it\'s hard to argue with the factory, but I\'m not convinced. All I ask is that you find me a P80 owner who says that they can get midi output well over 100. My GT1 won\'t, even if I absolutely pound the keyboard with a fist.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:

    If you already have one, all I can suggest is:

    1.Ask Yamaha for a software update which provides alternate velocity curves which don\'t require as much force to achieve 127.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    My GT1 won\'t do this. I think it would need a new board.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
    2.Using the new version of Gst\'s software which provides programmable velocity curves, edit the instrument to respond to 0-96 as though it\'s 0-127. (not ideal I supppose)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly what I have done. BUT. You also need to edit the velocity splits so that the loudest velocity layer sounds well before 96. Fine on some samples, but not on samples which use a lot of filtering to smooth the transition between velicity splits. This was precisely my initial question to Michiel (see above).

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
    3.Get some kind of mapping happening in your sequencer which \'expands\' the velocity range which is incoming. I think Logic and Cubase may be capable of this kind of \'transform\' (again, not ideal as you\'re still starting with a \'restricted\' range for all practical purposes).
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No good if, like me, you\'re playing only in real time and not using a sequencer.

    Thanks anyway

    UndaGiga


    [This message has been edited by UndaGiga (edited 10-30-2001).]

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