• Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Topic: My nights are the most creative time of the day

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Is this right or wrong?

    Altiverb or any other convolution reverb. Sonar or any other sequencer. Send to buses audio info for reverb.

    At least in Sonar one can tell how much of the audio signal has to be send to the bus where we control the reverb. Somebody, who is now in retreat, told me that this is the relation between what is sent and what not and it determines the direct and wet relationship.

    IMHO this is completely wrong. As soon as the oboe-ist enters the hall all sound he produces is part of the reverb, controlled by the convolution impuls and the sliders ( and delay, pre-delay, panning, etc.) to control the level of reverb. So no splitting into not-to-be-reverbed and to-be-reverbed.

    Shoot me or give me some sleeping pills to come up with better ideas.

    Raymond

  2. #2

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    One relationship that I can think of is with regards to mike placement. If you are just using stereo mikes in an auditorium than obviously, all instruments will be effected more or less by the sound of the hall relatively equally (given some variations to distance from the mikes and left or right of the center of the mikes).

    What if you mike each instrument or section of instruments at a very close position? The reverb would be nearly non-existent and you would have to furnish the reverb characteristics in the studio to compensate for the dry sound of the instruments recorded at close range.

    I think that is what using differing amounts of reverb (wet to dry) is about. The attempt to recreate a hall or auditorium sound in Sonar or any sequencer. All GPO instruments are without reverb (dry) in their basic sample format. It is the engineer who has to place them in the field.

    At least that is the way I take on a music project and the mind set I use. Obviously, this is all offered in the "for what it is worth" context.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong

    Rich

  3. #3

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Hi Raymond,

    It depends. Sometimes the reverb is not used to return signal to the mix, but instead the entire mix is sent through the reverb and the output of the reverb becomes the final mix (as in the original GPO studio). In this case, a wet/dry level is an absolute requirement. Otherwise, what you say is technically correct, and the mix/return level will dictate the wet/dry balance, the wet/dry slider is not needed, and the reverb should probably be run full wet.

    It's been a while since I worked in the studios, but I seem to remember most of the older outboard reverbs only returned wet sound. And I believe they were originally designed that way because they were simply mimicking the first reverb units, i.e., empty, highly reflective rooms with a speaker at one end and an omnidirectional mic (or mics if you wanted stereo ) at the other. Real acoustic reverb had no such concept as a built-in wet/dry slider. Simpler times.

  4. #4

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    • The first thing you hear in concert hall is the sound of the instrument, travelling in a straight line (compression wave) from the instrument to your ear. The wave leaves the instrument like a wave leaves a stone after it is cast in the pond - in a circle. When the wave reaches your ears, you are hearing 'direct sound' - ie the sound of the instrument directly. No reverb, just direct sound. Since this wave has its highest energy at this point (before it has hit anything that will absorb some of its energy), then direct sound is always the loudest part of the overall sound of an instrument.
    • Then that same wave hits the walls and surfaces and bounces off them and some of them get to you. These direct bounces are the 'early reflections'. Depending on your position in relation to the nearest reflective surface/wall and how carefully you are listening the early reflections might arrive very soon after the direct sound and so 'blend in', or there might be a perceptible gap if eg you are in the centre of a very large hall.
    • In turn these reflected waves bounce off of other surfaces in a criss-cross fashion, and form the 'reverb tail' of the hall. This is a confused mass of sound.
    • Very importantly though, that initial 'direct sound' wave is attenuated by the air between you and the instrument. The higher frequencies are lost more quickly than the lower frequencies - so the further you are from the instrument the less 'trebly' it will sound. There are mathematical formula available to calculate the exact amount of frequency attenuation by distance if you're interested.
    • Secondly, the higher frequencies typically (unless suitable acoustic treatment is in place) are absorbed more readily by surfaces than lower ones, meaning reverb tails tend to be more 'bassy'.
    All this is important when using reverb to create a realistic environment. A good reverb can manage all the above - 'direct sound' of instrument, attenuated by distance form listener, early reflections and reverb tail.

    If attenuated 'direct sound' is not available in a reverb unit/plugin, then people tend to use reverb as a send/return, or if as an insert, using wet/dry to get the direct sound portion. I think this is what your correspondent is hinting at. But this can sound a bit unrealistic as you hear a close miced sample (which GPO samples are) as if it is right beside you (the unsent/unreverbed portion), then early reflections and tails that suggest the instrument is on a far off stage. This creates an unnatural even disturbing sound stage. Even using send/returns and or inserts with wet/dry you can make eg eq adjustments that give a more realistic picture, but more 'concert hall' realism is attained if you use a reverb that can manage this for you and use it set at 100% wet (see DPDANs Altiverb tutorials for excellent explanations).

    Convolution reverbs manage all this quite well, though I believe from listening (I need to look this up) they sometimes work in an 'additive' way meaning they can in some cases 'increase' or boost the bass proportion of an instrument, which can never happen in real life (ie bouncing off walls can never 'add' energy to a wave, real reverbs are always 'subtractive' - ie take some energy away and bounce back what is left). 'Boomy' halls sound boomy simply because they are reflecting principally boomy frequencies so the overall perception of the sound is boominess.

    Having said all that and got this far, I don't even know if I am addressing your original point! What I can say is that from prior discussions/threads on this, almost every point I have put above has been hotly contested/argued in the past!

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Just north of Sydney
    Posts
    272

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Gday,

    Raymond said:

    “IMHO this is completely wrong. As soon as the oboe-ist enters the hall all sound he produces is part of the reverb, controlled by the convolution impuls and the sliders ( and delay, pre-delay, panning, etc.) to control the level of reverb. So no splitting into not-to-be-reverbed and to-be-reverbed.”

    Very true. To some extend, all recorded music is fake. Midi is a marvellous way to fake even more. We are all addicted to producing imaginary sounds. This is ok. It has become an art in itself. There are some really fantastic examples demonstrated on this forum, including examples by Raymond.

    I mostly do backing tracks for life performances. For this, I never use any reverb at all in the mix. Some halls have so much reverb, that I wish I could pack up and go home. As the public arrives and take their seats, reverb reduces. People, especially well fed overweight people absorb a lot of sound energy. I introduce reverb on site as necessary and only for the soloist usually. Some say, using reverb is a good way of covering up rubbish with delayed rubbish. This is of cause not true for my tracks and examples on this forum.

    Imagine Raymond wants to enjoy a concert and goes to the Concertgebow. Imagine, all people leave, when the oboe-ist enters. It would be very embarrassing for the oboe-ist. Yet Raymond and the oboe-ist would enjoy fully wet reverb as the reverb is a lot higher in an empty concert hall than it is in a full house. Reverb would be at its maximum.

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Just north of Sydney
    Posts
    272

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Gday again,

    The sound pressure level falls off from a point source directly in proportion to the distance to the point source. Sound pressure at 1 m from the point source falls of to 1/10 at 10 m. This is simply due to the geometry. Loss of sound pressure due to energy absorption by the air is not of much consequence in a concert hall.

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  7. #7

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Quote Originally Posted by sonata5920 View Post
    Gday,


    Imagine Raymond wants to enjoy a concert and goes to the Concertgebow. Imagine, all people leave, when the oboe-ist enters. It would be very embarrassing for the oboe-ist. Yet Raymond and the oboe-ist would enjoy fully wet reverb as the reverb is a lot higher in an empty concert hall than it is in a full house. Reverb would be at its maximum.

    Herbert
    In that article of the former Concertmaster, he even stated that when it is a sunny day the sound was better, no tuning needed in between, etc. They alsways noticed when people entered with wet cloths, they really HAD to re-tune their instruments between the various parts - especially the harpist !! Everything sounded different (on a rainy day).


    Raymond

  8. #8

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62 View Post
    In that article of the former Concertmaster, he even stated that when it is a sunny day the sound was better, no tuning needed in between, etc. They alsways noticed when people entered with wet cloths, they really HAD to re-tune their instruments between the various parts - especially the harpist !! Everything sounded different (on a rainy day).


    Raymond
    Ah! So that's what the WET/DRY setting does on a reverb! I've always wondered.

  9. #9

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    Quote Originally Posted by L0W View Post
    Ah! So that's what the WET/DRY setting does on a reverb! I've always wondered.
    LOL!!!

    Raymond - only making music for wet days

  10. #10

    Re: My nights are the most creative time of the day

    With great interest I've read all your replies. It is a very complicated stuff here and I have to re-read some of them. After all it seems that nights aren't the most creative hours of my days.

    OK, now these things:

    Dimensions of a hall are: 44 meters length/depth, 28 meters width and 18 meters height. The stage is about 10 meters deep and of course 28 meters width. I was told that the best seats are at the middle of the hall, so at 22 meters and though it wasn't in the article, I think that was inclusive the stage.

    So the first violins at the edge of the stage (almost) are at 12 meters distance from me. I suppose that the flute players are at 16 meters from me (second row), the clarinets (3rd row) at 18 meters, the horns-which I placed in the middle - at 20 meters. That 20 meters distance from me left a two meters from the last row to the reflecting wall behind.

    What does that to the delay and other settings?

    Another thing. String instruments aren't directional, they spread the sound around. Except for the percussion instruments all others are directional to the audience. So any reverb must have come from the floor, ceiling and wall left and right to them, almost nothing from the wall behind, unless echoed from the wall behind the audience back to the opposite wall in some random way.

    What does that to the delay and other settings?

    Complicated isn't it? And that's why they invented impulsfiles at different distances, because in those impuls files all things above are incorporated, including the damping by chairs, reflection by walls, ornaments, etc....

    In the impulsfile everything is included, so it is important the apply different impulses for different distances audience-instrumentalist. But what when you have only one impulsfile for the hall, like those of Lexicon. Completely useless or not?

    So, now you have something to think over and I go to bed.

    Raymond

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •