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Topic: Sibelius 6 crescendo

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  1. #1

    Sibelius 6 crescendo

    Hello everyone.

    I've been looking for an answer and I hope this is the right place to get it.
    Since I've been working with Sibelius (3,4,5), I always had the famous crescendo problem, and I know it's not a problem to everybody. When I asked for the right use of crescendo in Sibelius, people always write "use midi messages", so at this point, I've always used the exhausting "~C7,127" everywhere in the score, and I won't mention the changes I have to do sometimes.

    Anyway, I've heard with the new Sib 6 this problem is solved.. All we have to do is input the crescendo (Ctrl - H), and type the dynamic (I don't know how to call it, for example ppp - mf). However, I just can't make it work.

    My questions are, do I need to use the "~C7,xxx" coding even with this new version? does it work with any VSTi? am I doing it wrong? if I am the problem, what are the right steps to input the crescendo?

    Any answer will help, thanks.

    Andino
    Film Composer
    Visit me: http://www.andinomusic.com
    Twitter: @andinomusic
    Email: andinomusic@gmail.com
    Facebook Page:http://www.facebook.com/AndinoMusic

  2. #2

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    Hello everyone.

    I've been looking for an answer and I hope this is the right place to get it.
    Since I've been working with Sibelius (3,4,5), I always had the famous crescendo problem, and I know it's not a problem to everybody. When I asked for the right use of crescendo in Sibelius, people always write "use midi messages", so at this point, I've always used the exhausting "~C7,127" everywhere in the score, and I won't mention the changes I have to do sometimes.

    Anyway, I've heard with the new Sib 6 this problem is solved.. All we have to do is input the crescendo (Ctrl - H), and type the dynamic (I don't know how to call it, for example ppp - mf). However, I just can't make it work.

    My questions are, do I need to use the "~C7,xxx" coding even with this new version? does it work with any VSTi? am I doing it wrong? if I am the problem, what are the right steps to input the crescendo?

    Any answer will help, thanks.

    Andino

  3. #3

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    Did you or somebody already find out what to do about this problem? I'm still having the same problem.

  4. #4

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    Hello,

    Before answering this question in particular, I'll try to clear out another question related to this one.

    For those who don't know this yet, there are two midi controllers that modify sound volume: CC7 and CC11 (C7 and C11 in Sibelius, respectively).

    The CC7 control (Volume Control) regulates the overall volume of a track, from 0 (no sound) to 127 (the loudest). Thus, modifying it (by inputing C7 midi messages somewhere in that track) as the same effect as altering the volume slider of that track, in Sibelius' Mixer.

    On the other hand, CC11 control (Expression Control) regulates the relative volume (or "expression") of a track, for a given CC7. It also goes from 0 (minimum expression) to 127 (maximum expression), but, instead of changing the overall volume, it is used to vary dynamics for a certain volume level.

    In fact, you must think of CC7 as a master volume for a particular track, which balances the sound volume of that track relative to other tracks. In this scenario, the CC11 controls the dynamics within the track.

    For example, you can have a track with unchanged CC7=100 (~C7,100) and, somewhere in that track, you can have a crescendo, from ppp (CC11=19/~C11,19) all the way up to fff (CC11=120/~C11,120).

    So, the right way to make crescendos/diminuendos in Sibelius 2, 3, 4 or 5 is by inputing ~C11,xxx midi messages, not ~C7,xxx, and there is a plugin for Sibelius that does this for you quite well, without the need for you to input them manually, which is tedious.

    As for the first question, in my case, Sibelius 6 has done crescendos/ diminuendos, without the need for midi messages (because it creates "internal" midi messages along with the crescendo/diminuendo symbol), as long as I use Sibelius Sounds Essentials, or the provided GM-Module, which interpret the internal C7 and C11 messages in the right way. Not all sample libraries use controllers CC7 and CC11 for volume/expression control. For example, GPO uses CC1 for the same effect.

    I hope this helps to solve your question.

    Best regards

  5. #5

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    Thanks for your info! I'm using kontakt with a samply library that uses CC1 (Modulation) to control crescendo/decrescendos so unfortunately it won't be working for me then.

  6. #6

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    I'm a bit confused. Are you saying in the last paragraph of your reply that for a crescendo/diminuendo Sibelius does send CC7 / CC11 messages? I'm using Kontakt and I've managed to change it in a way that for a crescendo/diminuendo it now needs to receive CC11 messages. But I hear no effect. Same story when I change it to CC7.

  7. #7

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    As far as i've tested myself, the crescendo/decrescendo symbols work with Sibelius' own sound engines (Sibelius player and GM-Module). The internal messages are encoded midi messages, so not all 3rd party libraries/samplers seem to recognise them. So, for other sample libraries, I always use explicit midi messages (through ~Cxx,xxx text messages).

  8. #8

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    That's right. I've tested and it only works with CC7, unfortunately I use outsiders' sample libraries and there's no way to make it easier. It's tiring to deal with midi messages (even if we use a plugin), because it means that every time you input a hairpin for a crescendo, you have to go to the menu, select the option, input the values (that not always shows the right values) and test it, and if you need to make it louder, the you have to delete the chain of values and start the same procedure.

    But, for now there's nothing we can do about it, too bad for us...
    Film Composer
    Visit me: http://www.andinomusic.com
    Twitter: @andinomusic
    Email: andinomusic@gmail.com
    Facebook Page:http://www.facebook.com/AndinoMusic

  9. #9

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    Hi,

    I recently tested the dynamics and cresc./dim. playback in Sibelius 6 with GPO4 and EMU's Modern Symphony Orchestra (MSO), both as VST plugins. GPO4 executes dynamics, cresc./dim. hairpins and CC7 midi messages, but not CC11. MSO executes CC7 and CC11 midi messages, but not dynamics, or cresc./dim. hairpins. GPO4 has a dedicated sound set for it, that comes with Sibelius 6.x. MSO doesn't have one. This way, MSO doesn't know how to interact with the "encoded" midi messages from Sibelius' cresc./dim. hairpins, or dynamics. Therefore, it needs explicit CC7, or CC11, midi messages to interpret dynamics and cresc./dim. hairpins.

    But even in GPO4, while in some occasions the dynamics' and cresc./dim. hairpins' execution sounds as expected, in other occasions it doesn't. So, sometimes I use explicit CC7 midi messages to achieve the desired sound output. When I do this, I tend to use 1 CC7 midi message per note, assuming that I have several notes influenced by the dynamics or cresc./dim. hairpins. When I have just 1 note influenced by cresc./dim. hairpins, I put CC7 midi messages evenly spaced, in increments of 5 or 10, along the note's duration. I always input midi messages as technique text (an old and useful habit from Sibelius 2, when a good playback was even tougher to achieve) and edit them as I need. This way, I don't have to deleted all and recreate all from scratch when they don't sound as expected in the first try.

    This kind of work isn't much different from the one we would have to do in a sequencer, in order to achieve a good playback. In my case, having a classical background, I prefer doing it in a notation software, like Sibelius, which allows me to hear the effect along with the visual notation in the score, to see if it fits my purpose.

    Best regards.

  10. #10

    Re: Sibelius 6 crescendo

    I am surprised that no one has mentioned this, but when Sibelius comes to interpreting dynamics, the sound set determines what controller commands are sent to the VST. There is a sound set editor that comes with Sibelius and there are also XML editors such as Oxygen from http://www.oxygenxml.com/ that can be helpful if you have to edit a lot of items. It would be worth at least using the Sibelius sound set editor to open some of the sound sets that come with Sibelius for study. In some cases you may be able to edit a given sound set to more suit your needs are even create your own sound set when one is not present.

    For example, khiun mentions that: "MSO executes CC7 and CC11 midi messages, but not dynamics, or cresc./dim." If MSO executes CC7 and CC11 midi messages, as sound set can be created to convert Sibelius dynamics such as pp, f, or hairpins to CC11 midi messages. If the Sibelius "general midi" sound set works for basic instrument play for your VSTi, but your VSTi is not responding to dynamics, but does respond to CC7, CC11, or CC1 or whatever, you can edit the general midi sound set to send dynamics to CC11 or whatever you want.

    In the case of Kontakt 3 or 4, there is a "factory script" midi monitor that can be used to see what CC? commands are being sent from Sibelius.

    Here is part of what you need to know about Sibelius sound sets:

    If you open a sound set with the Sibelius Sound Set editor, you will see eight tabs.
    The second tab labeled "Controllers" lists the controllers that are available. If you click on one of the controllers, you will see what controller (like CC1,CC7, or CC11) is used along with default settings and so on.

    The third tab labeled "Volume Types" determines what volume types are available as volume controllers (i.e. dynamics like pp,f, and hairpins, keep in mind that the Sibelius manual says that words like cresc. are not read for performance. You have to use a hairpin which May be hidden to control that behavior.)

    The sixth column labeled "Programs" shows the mappings from the sound id to the instrument name. If you click on an instrument, you will see towards the bottom settings labled Volume type, Attack Type, etc. The Volume type listed here tells Sibelius where to send the dynamics commands. The Choices are those found under the third tab "Volume Types". If you want Sibelius to send dynamics to CC11 in your VSTi, then the Volume type listed for this instrument must point to an available tab 3 volume type which in turn must point to a controller defined under the tab two "Controllers" tab that points to CC11.

    You do not want an instrument volume type to point to a CC7 type controller, because this will over ride or conflict with the Sibelius mixer volume sliders.

    If you examine GPO4 with the sound set editor, you will find that most instrument volume types point to either NoteOnVelocity or Modwheel. Instrument volume type of Modwheel respond to dynamics by way of Modwheel or CC1 commands. You can see this with the Kontakt factory script midi monitor. The GPO4 manual claims that GPO4 responds to CC11 commands, but the Sibelius sound set does not reference CC11 under available controllers. You could add a CC11 controller (like Expression) under tab two and list it under tab three as a volume type and then change a given instrument to use Expression (i.e. CC11 controller) as the volume type.

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