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Topic: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

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  1. #1

    Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    Hi.
    We at Bigga Giggas are planning to make a sample-cd that includes Orchestral brass. This would be:
    Trumpet
    Trombone
    French Horn
    Tuba
    It will be solo instruments, and they will be played with a \"classical\" approached.
    Since we very much would like to make a product that fills the needs of the users, I would like to take this opportunity of asking all in this forum about what they would like to see on a CD like this.
    I like to start by telling what we\'re NOT gonna do:

    We are not going to do an extensive CD, covering a multitude of different styles. There are libraries that has this already. What we are trying to make, are a CD that covers 90% of the needs that an average semi-pro user has when it comes to orchestral brass.
    Here\'s how we have planned it so far:

    The instruments will be sampled in 4 different velocities, pp, p, mf and f. They will be sampled using two different attacks, one soft and one hard.
    There will be separate sordini and staccato samples. These will however only be sampled using one velocity.
    There will be no loops, but the musician is going to hold the note as long as his/hers lungs allows.....
    All samples will be in mono.

    Ok, this is what we have planned, NOW, we would like to hear what you say!

    Best
    Per Larsson
    Bigga Giggas www.biggagiggas.com

    Ps
    We have planned sessions with woodwind and strings, but we will start with this.
    The pricing on threse cd\'s will be less than $100
    Ds

  2. #2

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    Please, please, please, sample these in stereo using MS. That way, you can have GS use its built-in MS decoder for the folks who want stereo and a patch without it for mono.

    Also, I\'d really appreciate a sampled cornet. I haven\'t been able to find one anywhere.

  3. #3

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    For each of your planned articulations, could you make 2 samples? (eg two hard attacks, two soft attacks etc.,)This would allow repeated notes not to sound so obviously sampled. As to how you map them, perhaps you could put them in adjacent velocities.

    eg Your plan is for 4 velocities. You could break each of the four (pp, p, mp, f)up into further \'sub\' velocity switched layers, and assign the alternate samples to alternate sub-layers. Eg Hard attack Trumpet Fa sample and Hard attack Trumpet Fb would be assigned to alternate layers within the F region.

    If they\'re for semi-pro use, perhaps the room you record them in will be more important, as semi pros won\'t have easy access to things like a 480L. I\'ve always preferred natural large studio ambience anyway.

    Not close mic\'d - more distant micing is my preference - even if it means a little ambient noise on the softer samples.

    Don\'t go too \'static\' on the sustain portion of the sample. I know this is hard when you\'re not covering different types of expression, but those stagnant samples we all know and hate are SO depressing.

    If you\'re keeping the library size down, I suppose there\'s no point in asking for samples with vibrato. I still don\'t think that sampler LFOs cut it for realistic vibrato emulation.

  4. #4

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killerbobjr:
    Please, please, please, sample these in stereo using MS. That way, you can have GS use its built-in MS decoder for the folks who want stereo and a patch without it for mono.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmmmm, had planned to do monosamples, but we\'ll look into this!

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killerbobjr:

    Also, I\'d really appreciate a sampled cornet. I haven\'t been able to find one anywhere.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, great idea! How about Baroque Trumpet?

    /Per

  5. #5

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
    For each of your planned articulations, could you make 2 samples? (eg two hard attacks, two soft attacks etc.,)This would allow repeated notes not to sound so obviously sampled. As to how you map them, perhaps you could put them in adjacent velocities. [/QUOTE

    We have planned to do A/B versions of each sample!

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chadwick:

    If they\'re for semi-pro use, perhaps the room you record them in will be more important, as semi pros won\'t have easy access to things like a 480L. I\'ve always preferred natural large studio ambience anyway.
    [/QUOTE


    Good point! We had planned to sample it \"dead\". The problem with having to much ambient is that then your stuck with that.
    We probably use a little ambient.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chadwick:

    Not close mic\'d - more distant micing is my preference - even if it means a little ambient noise on the softer samples.
    [/QUOTE

    Yep, we\'ll use distanct mic\'s (Neuman U-47)

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chadwick:

    Don\'t go too \'static\' on the sustain portion of the sample. I know this is hard when you\'re not covering different types of expression, but those stagnant samples we all know and hate are SO depressing.
    [/QUOTE

    Could you explain this a bit closer? I\'m not certain that I know what you mean.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chadwick:

    If you\'re keeping the library size down, I suppose there\'s no point in asking for samples with vibrato. I still don\'t think that sampler LFOs cut it for realistic vibrato emulation.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I was thinking about having the musicians to add vibrato a second after he/she plays the note, so you will have the first portion of the sample without vibrato, to allow faster runs.

    /Per

  6. #6

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    Chadwick makes good points. You are about to make a major mistake though, Worra. That is your selection of dynamics. PP,P,MF,F is a very WRONG list. Please remember what miracles low-pass filters do to brass! (If you are not aware of this, try it out yourself) Proper selections of dynamic expressions would be P,MF,F,FF (You really want to capture the louder dynamic range of the brass instruments, as that is what is usually called for with brass. Having said that, I\'d like to point out a few things:

    Whatever you do, do NOT do these things:

    1) have the musician apply vibrato instantly
    2) mic close
    3) 20 second long static notes!!!!! (This is the most important thing of all!) DO NOT sample these lengths. First of all, it\'s hardly ever called for. Second, you can achieve good results with looping, and third, you can retrigger samples in a seamless way if you\'re a skilled sequencer. You\'ll save endless amounts of space, and in the end you\'ll save on production costs, if you ship it on one cd as opposed to 4-8!


    What you SHOULD do, however:

    1) less/no vibrato on f-ff notes.
    2) save EVERY mistake they make and offer a
    \"mistakes\" .gig with loads of snack that
    could help improve realism in a piece.

    3) Sample some up/down intervals of the
    most common intervals. If you do this, you\'ll most likely have a winner. Thirds, 4ths,5ths and octaves. Record these samples
    DRY, and you could (with clever soundediting) manipulate these intervals into covering the rest of the interval possibilities by pitching them. Sample the intervals in thirds or 4ths, at MF (lowpass filters go a long way with brass).

    4) Sample the rest of the notes with natural hall ambience (not too much ambience though)

    I suggest you have a look at the \"sampling Manifesto\" by Marc, Maarten and me. It could give you some ideas. Feel free to use our concept to brass sampling.

    Good luck!

    Thomas

    [This message has been edited by Thomas_J (edited 09-13-2001).]

  7. #7

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    Given Thomas-J\'s impressive demo (horns) and arguments about the virtues of not using close miking, could you at least do two versions of each - ambient and not so ambient.

    Also, would it be more practical to sample p, mf, f, ff rather than pp, p, mf and mf, as in my experience there\'s more difference between ff and f than p and pp in brass.

    Good luck.

  8. #8

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>
    Yeah, great idea! How about Baroque Trumpet?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I like it!

  9. #9

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    If the price is really going to be under $100, I applaud you. The future belongs to the companies and individuals who see that the \'Giga\' range is going to commoditize sample libraries.

    If you can do a job as well as say, Dan Dean\'s Solo Strings, and you can support customers after the purchase, you can look forward to rising sales over the long term (in the same way that good books and music can remain popular indefinitely).

    I wasn\'t planning to buy any brass, but your post has changed my mind.

    Best of luck with the project, and I look forward to purchasing it. (although if it\'s $100 per instrument, forget everything I said :-))

  10. #10

    Re: Brass CD - Suggestions wanted

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:
    Proper selections of dynamic expressions would be P,MF,F,FF
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Ok, good point P, MF, F, FF it will be!

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

    1) have the musician apply vibrato instantly
    2) mic close
    3) 20 second long static notes!!!!! (This is the most important thing of all!) DO NOT sample these lengths.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1) I\'ll ask the musician to had a moderate vibrato after aprox 1 second, and do the F & FF with less vibrato.
    2) I wont use close miking
    3) Very good point! I rather go for shorter, expressive notes, than 20 seconds long ones.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

    What you SHOULD do, however:

    1) less/no vibrato on f-ff notes.
    2) save EVERY mistake they make and offer a
    \"mistakes\" .gig with loads of snack that
    could help improve realism in a piece.

    3) Sample some up/down intervals of the
    most common intervals. If you do this, you\'ll most likely have a winner. Thirds, 4ths,5ths and octaves. Record these samples
    DRY, and you could (with clever soundediting) manipulate these intervals into covering the rest of the interval possibilities by pitching them. Sample the intervals in thirds or 4ths, at MF (lowpass filters go a long way with brass).

    4) Sample the rest of the notes with natural hall ambience (not too much ambience though)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1) See above
    2) That\'s a good idea! (I could offer a \"Blops & Blunder gig\" from the sample session for \"Sune\'s L100\". I was using an old L100 that I told Nemesys that it was \"Pre-digital\", they thought it was \"Pre-sound\".....\" It self-oscillated from time to time, and the only remedy was a good, firm smack. Anyway, when working, it sounded great!)
    3) I\'m not sure what your\'e after here, can you explain this?
    4) The solo samples will probably be made in a studio enviroment. However, I\'ll look for a room that has some ambience. It will not be a concert hall though.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas_J:

    I suggest you have a look at the \"sampling Manifesto\" by Marc, Maarten and me. It could give you some ideas. Feel free to use our concept to brass sampling.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thank you! I\'ve read it, and I\'ll read it again!

    //Per


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