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Topic: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

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  1. #1

    Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    There is a simple method which can say a lot about quality of any strings library - when you play a simple block chord (for example with cellos). The result with most strings libraries is terrible. However whan a real string orchestra plays this (it is maybe on rare ocassions, but sometimes yes, especially in film soundtracks), the result is amazing, spacious, very expressive layer, gentle sound - and it works very well in real orchestra with any single instrument playing melodic line together (for example oboe, flute). In short - when a real orchestra plays flute melody, accompanying by simple strings chords - it sounds good. When the same is playing by available string libraries - it sounds terrible. What about Gigastrings? Does this sound better with GS than older libraries or real(simple chord fill)? Or is it not yet so close to the real thing?

    Second question - what about fast and agressive strings in GS? Are there some SUSTAINED, or only short notes? It is very important because very fast yet expressive and realistic sustained strings sounds are one of mostly needed and usable. And layering marcatos or staccatos with legato in general is not optimal.

    There is a patch Full string orchestra - is it in fact only layer of cellos, violins etc. fitted into one GIG? Or is it really live recording of all the instruments playing together and single layer?

    What about pizzicato - is there also Full strings pizzicato orchestra patch?

  2. #2

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dis:
    There is a simple method which can say a lot about quality of any strings library - when you play a simple block chord (for example with cellos). The result with most strings libraries is terrible. However whan a real string orchestra plays this (it is maybe on rare ocassions, but sometimes yes, especially in film soundtracks), the result is amazing, spacious, very expressive layer, gentle sound - and it works very well in real orchestra with any single instrument playing melodic line together (for example oboe, flute). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dis... I haven\'t tried it, so I don\'t know how it sounds, because I think it is very unrealistic writing... You know WHY it sounds bad? First of all, because when a real orchestra plays a line, you will never experience e.g. 3 lines of strings playing with the same expression. So playing a chord has NO value in judging a library. You should always try to play your lines separately no matter which library you use.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>

    In short - when a real orchestra plays flute melody, accompanying by simple strings chords - it sounds good. When the same is playing by available string libraries - it sounds terrible. What about Gigastrings? Does this sound better with GS than older libraries or real(simple chord fill)? Or is it not yet so close to the real thing?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Of course it sounds better. It\'s all up to the composer how good though...

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>

    Second question - what about fast and agressive strings in GS? Are there some SUSTAINED, or only short notes? It is very important because very fast yet expressive and realistic sustained strings sounds are one of mostly needed and usable. And layering marcatos or staccatos with legato in general is not optimal.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If having sustained strings with aggressive attacks is very important for you, GOS is not for you. However I can\'t really see why that is so important. As you say yourself, just layer marcatos or spiccatos or staccatos for that. \"it is not optimal\" you say. Can you elaborate on that? Well, I don\'t think you can, but could you at least try?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>


    There is a patch Full string orchestra - is it in fact only layer of cellos, violins etc. fitted into one GIG? Or is it really live recording of all the instruments playing together and single layer?

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Of course it is \'only\' a layer of cellos, violins etc.... having the orchestra playing it like that would not be very flexible and good programmingwise and would probably seriously diminish its usability due to volume changes, timbre changes etc that you dont have enough control over - when you can program it you can balance the orchestra properly. Much more useful than a recording of all strings.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>

    What about pizzicato - is there also Full strings pizzicato orchestra patch?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Honestly I don\'t know. I try to write as realistically as possible, so I don\'t really want to use that kind of patches....


    [This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 09-08-2001).]

  3. #3

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    Simon: I told that chords with strings - only on rare ocassions! But sometimes yes. And with real orchestra it sounds great (even if you call it unrealistic writing). So I think it is valuable aspect for judging library (not most, of course).

    Yes, such layering is not optimal, beacause it sounds often not good and realistic. It\'s simple - when it plays the marcato (for example) attack, then it shouldn\'t be layered with legato patch beginning. The legato should tie up atfer the marcato attack fluently, and not to be layered beginning of marcato with beginning of legato. With two different samples it is hardly possible to make such layer sound clear. There\'s is a simple example: 24 HRDSUS violins (one layer) in Kirk hunter sounds better than if you layer 24 VN ESP with 24 VN HRD, just because of unrealistic beginning caused by layering. I hope that Gigastrings have some such patches as K. Hunter (Cellos hard sustains, Violins hard sustains)

    I don\'t agree that for Full string orchestra patch is much more useful layering than a recording of all strings. The example is P. Siedlaczek strings - if you play Full string orchestra PP or FF patch from PS \"Orchestra\" library, it sounds very decent and expressive - and these patches are just one layer recordings of full str. orch. playing. And - on the contrary - if you layer violins, cellos etc. from PS \"Advanced Orchestra\" lib. it sounds absolutely terrible. Just layer Violins F, Cellos F etc. - the result is bad. And then load STR (one-layer full str. orch.) FF patch from PS Orchestra - and it sounds fairly good and expressive. That\'s why one layer recording of the real thing is better, than layering Vn, Vs, Cl, Bs patches - it sounds much more artificial (logically), and the first case good, expressive.

  4. #4

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    Hey Dis,
    While I\'m still awaiting my arrival of Gigastrings, I will add a few comments about the block chords thing. Simon is correct in saying that you will get the best results expressively and more realistically playing the notes individually via violins, violas, celli, and basses. However, if you\'re doing electronica orchestral scores or trip hop type stuff, you can achieve playing block chords. I would use different inversions however of say an A minor chord, like maybe the third inversion (E-A-C). Try to voice them more openly and not so obvious.
    The problem with block chords for me is that I have to use my sustain pedal to hold down each chord so my fingers can move to the next chord and that will cause string lines to sound funny when changing chords expressively.
    I\'ve gotten decent results with the AO soft sustains when using block chords, which is extremely rare since I like to do each line seperately, so I\'m sure Gigastrings will definitely work with the \'full strings\' ensemble patch.
    I to agree though with Simon, when doing real orchestral work without electronica, do each line individually.

  5. #5

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    There should be a Full String Pizzicato patch in the final release.

    As for block chords, the reason they sound good in film scores is because it is, like Simon says , different expressiveness on the notes. Also you may end up with divisi strings in real playing. Anyhow, the strings do layer well so playing chords on seperate midi channels with different expressiveness sounds jsut fine (maybe a bit thick, but fine)

    As for layering short attacks and the \"legato\" samples. It actually works pretty well. Remember this library is programmed completely differently than any other library, so there are more variations with the crossfade layers of \"legato\" to \"match up\" the short attacks. Also there are more attacks than just MArcato. There is also a lot of customizing that can be done in each patch...not to mention \"upgraded\" articulations that will be available through Gary and stuff end users like ourselves can share. I believe that there will be a bit more of a \"community\" atmosphere with GOS, and a lot more sharing will go on. Unlike the other string libraries. Gary does plan to keep offering upgraded patches and \"tweaks\" for all different types of users. Not to mention other surprises those guys prolly have up their sleeves....they are FREAKS!!!!! but in a good way



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    Really...I am an Idiot

  6. #6
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    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    Block chords usually do not sound good for legato sounds. Double and triple stops are hard to control. Listen to solo violinist doing multiple notes and then imagine a whole string section doing the same thing. It usually sounds harsh especially with 3-4 notes. Most scores I have always divide the string players up so there still only playing 1 or 2 notes which has a tendency to lighten up the chords. Playing marcato usually works well though for block chords and was used by many composers such as Ravel.

    The Full String Orchestra patch actually does quite nice block chords and works as a great sketch pad or even as a live string sound. The original beta included legato, marcato, pizzicato and tremolo articulations. Not sure was on the final release though.

    GOS is able to pull off pretty much every articulation I\'ve thrown at it. It is the only string library I now use. No more layering multiple libraries to get an exceptable sound or the various articulations.

  7. #7

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    OK, it sounds good.
    And are there some violins, cellos with fast attacks? I don\'t mean marcato, staccato, etc. but normal strings, but with fast (not slow or medium slow) attack? Thanks.

  8. #8

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    Dis, I already wrote that there are not any sustained samples in GOS with fast/hard attacks.....

  9. #9

    Re: Fast strings and block chords in Gigastrings

    DIS just layer. It DOES sound good with this library.

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    Really...I am an Idiot

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