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Topic: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

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  1. #1

    ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    I did some research on a selection of familiar movie trumpet themes. What kind of articulations, note lengths and attack-velocities are most common in these themes? This is really a topic to think about!

    In other words --- WHAT KIND OF SAMPLED ARTICULATIONS, PERFORMANCES DO WE NEED MOST ?

    The results and conclusions to this research I collected in an article, which is free for ANYONE to read here:
    http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/public/articulations.html

    Please read it, if you can spare the time. In my opinion, the results are really surprising!

    Maarten Spruijt

    ------------------
    ( www.maartenspruijt.com )
    Music demo: http://www2.hku.nl/~maarte2/audio/tpsuite.mp3
    ICQ: 37834976

    [This message has been edited by Maarten Spruijt (edited 08-31-2001).]

  2. #2

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    I can\'t believe we\'re giving this out for free! Maarten, I am cutting you off of the Britney flow!

    Anyway, get it while it lasts.

  3. #3

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    Absolutely fantastic approach Maarten.
    When you have to make decisions on what articulations to leave out, and you\'re making a library which is designed to emulate popular film music - this is the way to go.

    Now if everyone could just take your template and apply it to their own ten favourite scores...

    I might not be the best to do this because I tend to like my portatos baked, not fried.

  4. #4

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    Hey Marc, leave his Britney alone!

    Unless you want to spend ages picking apart a couple of hundred film scores, I think opening this idea up is a good way to go.

    This way, if someone has twenty spaghetti westerns they like, they can put up the articulation analsyes, leave it at that, and you won\'t be being hassled as much for niche styles. Doesn\'t mean you have to use them either, does it?

    Maybe you should offer anyone that does a unique analysis of ten scores a ten percent discount, or a guaranteed opportunity to be a beta tester...

  5. #5

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    One thing you might want to think about -- are those articulations that are used most really what is going to make it sound more realistic? Or does the realism stem from some small detail that only comes up here and there.

    Take the stacatto and stacatissimo articulations. Obviously the shorter of the two is shown in your example to come up far more often than the longer one, but without having a longer one to use it with it would completely lose it\'s desired effect. So, I\'m hoping that you are planning to not just include the most commonly used articulations, but also those that will be used to contrast with them. (IE, including a plain stacatto, not just the stacatissimo). It would be nearly impossible to use one length from a different library, becuase of differences in tibre and mic\'ing.

    I\'ve been hoping for a library with 2 different length stacattos for a while, and I think that having that single extra short length alone would add so much to the realism of brass, woodwinds, and strings alike.

    I wonder, if some of the sample selection could be made through an addon application along the lines of \"Maestro Tools.\" I\'ve only heard what\'s been posted here about that, but surely it could automate some of these tasks by using MIDI note length data.

    Surely I\'m not alone in looking forward to the first library that attempts to use some of these big concept changes that so many are talking about here. I hope that it really makes the difference that so many people are saying it will.

  6. #6

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    Hi Maarten,

    Very nice - good thinking!

    I did the same kind oif research, when I wanted to create my bass libraries: I had a fantastic Slap bass teacing book, where all the examples (Score) were recorded to an audio CD. So I sequenced the \"hardest\" examples and could compare them to the \"original\". If I couldn\'t do some of the stuff or if it sounded un-natural, I went back to sample some new articulations.
    When I could do everything, I send a demo to the very respected bass player and author of the book. He respond was not happy:

    \"...in all honesty I find this
    type of thing to be more than a little bit disturbing!

    ...I\'m aware that many keyboard players have found (name of the book) ! useful as well,
    but your product seems to go beyond simple sequencing.

    ...I\'m not sure how I feel about it. I\'m certainly someone who utilizes
    technology in my work, but I\'m not sure about using technology to
    eliminate players!\"


    He was not happy, but I had reached my goal.

    Scarbee



    [This message has been edited by SCARBEE (edited 09-01-2001).]

  7. #7
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    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    That\'s a great story, Scarbee. It\'s funny, but I think there are a lot of musicians that aren\'t aware or are just starting to become aware of what\'s going on with this technology right now. It used to be that people joked around about losing there gigs to a sampler, because everyone knew that a real player \"makes all the difference\". However, that\'s not really something to joke around about anymore, because many musicians really are losing there gigs now. I think the profession of \"studio player\" is no longer a viable career for any musician, regardless of skill. I did quite a bit of session work in college, but noticed that the crowd that I used to hang with at that time has pretty much dissolved. Nobody\'s really getting any session work anymore and they\'re all sitting at home trying to figure out how to make Giga work!
    It\'s ironic but the main reason why I got the brass musicians that I sampled to agree to be sampled was by playing up the inferiority of samplers at the time (3 years ago). What they didn\'t know was that I was creating libraries for giga and nobody knew what it was or what it was capable of at the time, so they had no problem letting me sample them. If they knew that I\'d be pretty much eliminating the need to hire them for sessions, I think they would have thought twice about it. Funny that they didn\'t question why I was sampling every possible articulation in the book!
    -J

  8. #8

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    Maarten, excellent idea and great concept!

    The only problem with these type of surveys is the results tend to be skewed because the sample is too small, or the researcher biased. In this case, since John Williams is the composer of 70% of your theme list, the only real conclusion is that these are the favorite articulations of John Williams. They may also be the ones most needed to convey the heroic image but the data does not prove that.

    However, there is nothing wrong with gleaning from Williams\' body of work the rules needed to \"sound like John Williams\". After all, Western harmonic rules were derived by musicians looking at Bach\'s stuff and saying \"Gosh, he did that a lot.\"

    I\'ll bet my AO horns that if you did the same analysis on ten pieces by Hans Zimmer, you\'ll get a different set of most needed articulations. Anybody willing?

    Neal

  9. #9

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    Hi IOComposer:

    I have experienced the same with many of my friends, who are excellent musicians. Most of them do not make their living anymore doing music, but have to work in the airport or something like that. I feels a bit strange, but the future is going another way.
    The fact is that you have to be a musician, composer, technician, arranger, computer-nerd to make a living today and you can not afford to stay away from technology for even a short period.

    I know that some really cool musicians use my library to \"eliminate\" other very good musicians and this has surprised me much. Some even uses my basses to do fusion/solo stuff... not even that is safe anymore.

    scarbee

  10. #10

    Re: ARTICLE: What kind of sampled articulations do we REALLY need ?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neal Keane:
    Maarten, excellent idea and great concept!

    The only problem with these type of surveys is the results tend to be skewed because the sample is too small, or the researcher biased. In this case, since John Williams is the composer of 70% of your theme list, the only real conclusion is that these are the favorite articulations of John Williams. They may also be the ones most needed to convey the heroic image but the data does not prove that.

    However, there is nothing wrong with gleaning from Williams\' body of work the rules needed to \"sound like John Williams\". After all, Western harmonic rules were derived by musicians looking at Bach\'s stuff and saying \"Gosh, he did that a lot.\"

    I\'ll bet my AO horns that if you did the same analysis on ten pieces by Hans Zimmer, you\'ll get a different set of most needed articulations. Anybody willing?

    Neal
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I\'d argue that Zimmer\'s work is some of the most derivative and repeatative work in the industry... overly synthy and very easy to spot. IMHO.

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