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Topic: A thought when using Altiverb

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  1. #1

    A thought when using Altiverb

    Hi folks,

    I am experimenting. Suddenly I got the following idea. Should I dismiss it, have a strong drink or should I go for a long walk in the snow?

    Since Altiverb, when using Stage position, calculates the direct sound automatically, there is no use having Send buses directing to those audio tracks where I inserted Altiverb. When there are no Send buses, then I don't have to decide the amount of how much signal is going to those "reverbed" buses.

    Now I only have to group instruments, let's say Woodwinds to one bus and letting Altiverb doing the job of splitting direct sound and reverbed portion.


    ... should I take that drink?

    Raymond

  2. #2

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Hi, Raymond - Well, having the drink is up to you. But what you've described about using Altiverb sounds pretty much the way I've seen Dan explain it several times.

    Since Altiverb is doing the calculation of how far the instrument is from the mike or audience, and where the musician is on your stage - using a bus like with traditional reverbs would be both redundant and detrimental to the effect.

    That's why Dan stresses that when using Altiverb, the signal must be completely wet--because the mixing of reverb to original signal is done inside Altiverb, along with all the other processing.

    By George--I think you got it!

    Randy B.

  3. #3

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hi, Raymond - Well, having the drink is up to you. But what you've described about using Altiverb sounds pretty much the way I've seen Dan explain it several times.
    Oh, I didn't see that part. He was explaining Altiverb, but that Altiverb Window covered too much of the buses underneath, or it may have escaped me completely.

    Since Altiverb is doing the calculation of how far the instrument is from the mike or audience, and where the musician is on your stage - using a bus like with traditional reverbs would be both redundant and detrimental to the effect.
    That's what I noticed. I used Altiverb as a "regular" reverb as presented in Sonar, but the sound was terrible. So the new thought crept in (is that the past tense of to creep?).

    That's why Dan stresses that when using Altiverb, the signal must be completely wet--because the mixing of reverb to original signal is done inside Altiverb, along with all the other processing.
    Let us skip that other processing, too complicated for this dude. But how about the signal flow. In my experiments the outcome is really strange. It seems that everything is too wet, too much reverb. How can I lower this? It is awful!!

    By George--I think you got it!
    Who is George?

    Have a nice new year with lots of music, tons of happiness and of course health and money......

    Raymond

  4. #4

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Hi, Raymond

    It's probably time for Dan to step in and explain more thoroughly, so hopefully he'll soon see your thread.

    But it sounds like you're getting bad results so far because you're letting the signal be 100% wet. That's the same problem notation users have when they add a reverb, not knowing that they can't keep the proportions 100% wet and 0% dry.

    The descriptions of how to use Altiverb that I was referring to are in pretty old posts from Dan, some going back a couple of years probably. I just remember him being very adamant that with Altiverb, the entire signal from a track needs to go through the reverb, rather than the traditional mixing method where signals are split with a dry signal going to a master along with portions of the track being diverted through a reverb unit via a bus.

    He was saying that the balance between wet and dry happens inside Altiverb - analogous to what we're familiar with in the Garritan Ambience where there are wet/dry sliders. In the case of that reverb, a good starting point of the mix is around 70% dry and 30% wet.

    So I'm rather sure your problem at present is that you're hearing 100% wet signal which would be cavernous, distant and awful. No reverb is meant to be used at full throttle unless it's for a rare special effect.

    Dan is the Altiverb expert here--I defer to him for giving you more specific info.

    Happy New Year to you also, Raymond.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Hi guys!

    I failed to include a toot on audio track and group routing when I posted my little tutorials in an older topic.

    I added a few links at the bottom of my first post.

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...317#post627317

    Dan

  6. #6

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    Hi folks,

    I am experimenting. Suddenly I got the following idea. Should I dismiss it, have a strong drink or should I go for a long walk in the snow?
    a walk in the snow with a drink perhaps

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    In my experiments the outcome is really strange. It seems that everything is too wet, too much reverb. How can I lower this? It is awful!!
    if your mix sounds too wet and too distant, you need to use a smaller room or keep the one you have chosen, but move the stage positioning speakers closer downstage (to the front). Also, sometimes with some IR's we loose the detail of the instruments, we can get that back by using a reasonable amount of high frequency boost in Altiverb's EQ.

    Dan

  7. #7

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    I am lost. What next? Did I buy just a bunch of sophisticated mathematical formulaes for a couple of hundreds? The rule 70% dry and 30% wet? Why?

    I will wait for DPDAN to explain this further.

    a. how to implement Altiverb in an audio data stream;
    b. do I have to use Send buses to split into dry and wet;
    c. how much wet and dry?
    d. stage position doesn't allow to set direct, but when I don't use stage position where is the direct sound going to?

    These may be redundant questions......

    Raymond

  8. #8
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    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post

    That's why Dan stresses that when using Altiverb, the signal must be completely wet--because the mixing of reverb to original signal is done inside Altiverb.

    Randy B.
    Hi all,

    Altiverb/GPO question:

    Does that mean that if I use Altiverb on an ensemble of strings built with several single "players" (that usually sounds like a bunch of close mic'd violins and not really like a ensemble sound) will sound like a convincing, "distant" ensemble? (as opposed to close mic'd with a reverb tail)

    I guess that if the dry sound is totally processed in Altiverb, then it can be "reshaped" according to the selected impulse (?)

    Is Altiverb capable of doing that illusion?

    NDEE

  9. #9

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    The rule 70% dry and 30% wet? Why?
    I have never heard of that, always use what sounds best, never use numeric values.

    Make sure and watch the links I posted that discusses routing.

    Windows 14mb

    Quicktime 14mb

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    a. how to implement Altiverb in an audio data stream;

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    b. do I have to use Send buses to split into dry and wet;
    NO

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    c. how much wet and dry?
    I explain this thoroughly in this tutorial...
    Windows...
    Quicktime...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    d. stage position doesn't allow to set direct,
    that is correct,...the stage positioning feature has to be in control of that, otherwise what would be the point of moving things around in an acoustic space if one critical thing like the original source is not controlled/affected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    but when I don't use stage position where is the direct sound going to?
    You seem to be making this more complicated than it is. The direct sound as you are calling it, is all part of the stereo output of Altiverb, and does not need be controlled separately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62
    These may be redundant questions......
    yes, they were in some ways
    Dan

  10. #10

    Re: A thought when using Altiverb

    in conclusion,,,

    Ideally, every individual midi track gets recorded to it's own audio track.

    All Woodwinds audio tracks get routed to a stereo group fader and named accordingnly.
    All Brass........ audio tracks get routed to a stereo group fader and named accordingnly.
    All Percussion. audio tracks get routed to a stereo group fader and named accordingnly.
    All Strings...... audio tracks get routed to a stereo group faderand named accordingnly.

    Each of these "group" faders are not routed to the final master or mix track, instead, they are routed to four additional stereo groups where the same Altiverb Room IR is inserted into each but with different mic distance to accommodate each section properly. It is critical that each of these four separate Altiverb IR's be modified (with stage positioning) to suite your own taste for the distance that you want to achieve of each orchestral section...
    The possibilities are endless.

    Dan

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