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Topic: GPO4 Bassoon problem

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  1. #1

    GPO4 Bassoon problem

    I'm fairly new to GPO (and to instrumentation in general) so I may have just run into a fact of life, but I'm having problems with a soft bassoon passage. Bassoon pp eighth notes with Q=120 lag way behind the other instruments' notes. The problem is much less at p and is unnoticeable at mp. I don't notice that the range has a significant effect, but these are A4, B4, and D4.

    I assume that this is an artifact of the bassoon's attack characteristics, but doesn't a bassoonist accommodate? Is there something in GPO to tweak that approximates this accommodation (if there is such accommodation)? I've decided to just make the passage louder, but it seems like I shouldn't have to.

    Pat

  2. #2

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Quote Originally Posted by pokeefe View Post
    I'm fairly new to GPO (and to instrumentation in general) so I may have just run into a fact of life, but I'm having problems with a soft bassoon passage. Bassoon pp eighth notes with Q=120 lag way behind the other instruments' notes. The problem is much less at p and is unnoticeable at mp. I don't notice that the range has a significant effect, but these are A4, B4, and D4.

    I assume that this is an artifact of the bassoon's attack characteristics, but doesn't a bassoonist accommodate? Is there something in GPO to tweak that approximates this accommodation (if there is such accommodation)? I've decided to just make the passage louder, but it seems like I shouldn't have to.

    Pat
    Hi, Pat

    Sounds like you must be using a notation program. There are so many special challenges notation users face when they're wanting a good recording as well as nice looking print outs.

    As a sequencer user (Sonar to be exact) the phenomenon you're talking about is well known to me when any instrument is playing a soft-slow-swelling kind of attack. The MIDI passages in question are simply shifted slightly to the left to compensate for the delay in onset to the full tone. Always needed when using string sounds that are softly swelling in. Without that compensation being done in the track, the strings would always sound late. The same with your bassoon passage.

    How to do that in a notation program without messing up your display---I have no idea.

    Randy B.

  3. #3

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Many thanks. I'll post the question on the Sibelius forum.

    Pat

  4. #4
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    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Gday pokeefe and happy New Year,

    Often, if not always, performing musicians think ahead and act ahead of what notation might suggest. A “soft-slow-swelling kind of attack” is only one example of where the accent of a particular sequence does not fall at the beginning of the action, as suggested by notation. Rightly, Randy says, you need to correct timing in piano roll representation. If your notation software includes piano roll editing, you are ok, just use it. If not, you need a notation program and another program to do piano roll editing. I do all important work by notation, but then spend a lot of time to get the timing right. You could do all your time shifting by notation, but don’t, your music will become totally unreadable. What the notation represents is symbolic, not a precise record of music in time.

    Best wishes,

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  5. #5

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Thank you for the reiteration of what I posted, Herbert.

    It's almost two different worlds, that of music codified into notation and music as it's performed. It's always impressive to me when people manage to squeeze something actual acoustically musical out of notation programs which by their nature are intended primarily to make professional looking scores possible to produce.

    These kind of issues, needing to shift the timing of slow attack passages, are what sequencer users work with all the time. They're in the world of making recordings that sound good, and so are constantly tweaking everything they can get their hands on to achieve their goals. If they had to rely on the impossibly perfect play-back which is rendered by a computer reading/playing a notation score--well, they wouldn't be able to produce actual Music which is their primary goal.

    Randy B.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Just north of Sydney
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    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    My dear Randy,

    My very warmest and sincere wishes to you and to your new spouse. May the new year propel both of you to ever more happiness, to fulfillment of your dreams and to much success.

    At times we are looking at different ends of the game – MUSIC. It is so very interesting. There is no simple formula or method for music creation. In the end, it is the totality of all ideas that counts. A lot f hard work and dedication is essential.

    As always, best wishes,

    Herbert
    GPO, JABB, CMB, GWI, GOFRILLER, HALION PLAYER, ACCORDIONS by E Tarilonte
    Cubase 6, Notation Composer, VSTHost, GoldWave audio editor.

    Interests:
    Good Food, Gemütlichkeit, Wein Weib und Gesang – History, Politics, Civil Law –
    Electronics, Software Development, Physics – Plant Physiology, Creative Horticulture –
    Photography, Painting, Wood Working - Midi Orchestration, Music, Music, und Musik …

  7. #7

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post

    It's almost two different worlds, that of music codified into notation and music as it's performed. It's always impressive to me when people manage to squeeze something actual acoustically musical out of notation programs which by their nature are intended primarily to make professional looking scores possible to produce.

    Randy B.
    I'm afraid I'm stuck between those two worlds. As an amateur composer with no expectation of performance outside of my Sibelius/Garritan environment, I need the notational software for input and sound production software for output. I've no need for professional looking scores, but I still need to be able to read what I've written, so I prefer/need to write as though the score would be read by real performers rather than writing for an accurate rendering by GPO.

    Luckily, Sibelius has the ability to hasten or delay presentation of a note to the sound generating software by up to one quarter note's time in 256 increments in each direction.

    For the bassoon problem I had to hasten presentation of the sounds by 50 of the 256 intervals - a seemingly huge amount. Luckily, Sibelius scales it to the tempo. Unluckily, the needed amount varies with dynamics so I'l probably have to do a lot of manual tweaking.

    Pat

  8. #8

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    If you've no need for a professional looking score you are not using the right programme. If you want the music to play correctly then you don't need a score writing programme but a DAW like Cubase or similar. There you don't get the problem with the lag and you can adjust the positions to suit.

    I don't know if you can hide a staff in the score but if so, write it how it should look but don't play it, then on a separate hidden staff, move it to sound right and play from that.

    Or save it all as midi and play it from a sequencer.
    Derek
    Things may come and things may go but the art school dance goes on forever
    NOW WITH Cubase 5, JABB,GPO, Fender Strat, Ibanez RG, Yamaha Fretless Bass, Framus Archtop, The Trumpet and Mr T Sax, together with GREEN SEALING WAX


  9. #9

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Quote Originally Posted by buckshead View Post
    If you've no need for a professional looking score you are not using the right programme. If you want the music to play correctly then you don't need a score writing programme but a DAW like Cubase or similar. There you don't get the problem with the lag and you can adjust the positions to suit.

    I don't know if you can hide a staff in the score but if so, write it how it should look but don't play it, then on a separate hidden staff, move it to sound right and play from that.

    Or save it all as midi and play it from a sequencer.
    You very well may be right about not having the right software, but I suspect the same could be said about a DAW. As near as I can tell from reading about DAWs I need next to nothing provided by them. I have no MIDI input or output devices, no existing music (other than the scores I'm writing), etc. I at least understand a score (even if I don't understand how the notation software uses it and a sound library system to "play" the score).

    Pat

  10. #10

    Re: GPO4 Bassoon problem

    Quote Originally Posted by pokeefe View Post
    I'm fairly new to GPO (and to instrumentation in general) so I may have just run into a fact of life, but I'm having problems with a soft bassoon passage. Bassoon pp eighth notes with Q=120 lag way behind the other instruments' notes. The problem is much less at p and is unnoticeable at mp. I don't notice that the range has a significant effect, but these are A4, B4, and D4.

    I assume that this is an artifact of the bassoon's attack characteristics, but doesn't a bassoonist accommodate? Is there something in GPO to tweak that approximates this accommodation (if there is such accommodation)? I've decided to just make the passage louder, but it seems like I shouldn't have to.

    Pat
    Pat,
    This issue may be fixable by increasing the velocity of the bassoon notes.
    Sibelius may default to a velocity of 64 on wind instruments; if so, that's a bit mushy.

    Set velocity to 88~96 for the bassoon and see how that sounds.

    In case you are not aware, volume in GPO sustaining instruments is controlled by the Mod Wheel and velocity controls the initial attack. That's a bit of a change for people used to a MIDI environment.

    Please try to boost the velocity and see what happens. If you don't know how to do that, write back & I will explain.

    Failing that, if you send me a copy of the score I will see what I can do.

    I have Sib 5, but don't use it as much as I use Finale or Overture, and I don't have the problem you describe in any of them.

    Jim W.
    Jim Williams
    Professor of Capitalism
    N9EJR
    Indianapolis Brass Choir
    All Your Bass Sus&Short Are Belong to Us.

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