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Topic: Dan Dean WW question/idea

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  1. #1

    Dan Dean WW question/idea

    I SILL haven\'t piced this library up...possibly this week If I don\'t talk myself out of spending money..but anyway

    Since all the instruments are chromatically sampled, wouldn\'t it be possible to create \"mock\" ensembles by doubling/tripling a part on other MIDI channels, and transposing up/down and using course tune to pitch the instrument back into key? Has anyone tried this?



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    Really...I am an Idiot

  2. #2

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    That\'s a great idea, and should work well with chromatically sampled instruments. If you wanted to triple parts you\'d only have to do a semitone shift for one up and one down and then do the relative coarse tunes.

    This is the kind of thing Dan could easily supply as an extra on his web site. It\'d be very valuable.

    Actually, why not make this a Giga feature? A kind of \'timbral shift\' which autoimatically does both? You just specify the direction and range, and the editor creates an instrument copy to that spec.

    [This message has been edited by Chadwick (edited 07-31-2001).]

  3. #3

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    Are you suggesting that, to avoid phasing/coloring in unison ensemble playing, the same instruments are not just slightly detuned, but rather that they are transposed by a semitone and then \"depitched\" one semitone?

    Do I understand this correctly or am I completely missing the point here?

    A-


  4. #4

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    What interesting guesses! The features you\'re talking about have already been programmed by me and will be on my website in a few days when it finally comes up. I have spent too much time reprogramming the WW\'s to add \"ensemble\" features which do the very thing you describe in both the ways you describe. We developed these in the new DD Solo Brass and the results are astonishing. Since I don\'t loop anything and the notes are long, they dynamically shift pitch, so when layered...viola!

    If you have the WW\'s already, you can achieve somehat the same effect by playing the same part on multiple layers in the layers KeySw preset. Pick 2 or 3 layers and assign them separate midi channels...you get the idea.

    I also have reprogrammed the Solo Strings using the ensemble idea. Amazing as well. All these and other updates will be available on my site in a few days. The Solo WW\'s update will be available to registered users. The Solo Strings and Bass Collection updates will be posted for the public.

    More later,
    DD

    [This message has been edited by dandean (edited 07-31-2001).]

  5. #5

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    Andrea,

    Yes thats what I was suggesting. Its mainly for unison playing and not for \"divisi\" playing, just to avoid the \"chorusing/phasing\" sound.

    Dan,..

    Ha of course Prety interested in hearing how they sound, and am still awaiting DD Solo Brass

    Have you guys thought about mixing the seperate samples into \"ensemble\" wave files? I wonder how crossfading would sound with those. Also How bad was the crossfading on the solo instruments? Did it only sound bad with really slow swells, how were fster moves between layers?

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    Really...I am an Idiot

  6. #6

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KingIdiot:
    Andrea,

    Yes thats what I was suggesting. Its mainly for unison playing and not for \"divisi\" playing, just to avoid the \"chorusing/phasing\" sound.

    Dan,..

    Ha of course Prety interested in hearing how they sound, and am still awaiting DD Solo Brass

    Have you guys thought about mixing the seperate samples into \"ensemble\" wave files? I wonder how crossfading would sound with those. Also How bad was the crossfading on the solo instruments? Did it only sound bad with really slow swells, how were fster moves between layers?

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    The key is to use completely different samples, that way there IS no flanging.

    The DD Solo Brass sound amazing, both in just the Solo articulations AND in the ensembles. You actually hear the \"peel\" of the brass as it changes pitch over time.

    About the crossfading issue, it is a real problem to MY ears in solo instruments. It might be less of an issue in the faux ensembles as you suggest. I think one of the main problems at this point with adding samples to the banks is the size constraint. Maybe this would make an update. It seems like a good thing to look into. Also, the most realistic way to do this would be to record real players in ensembles. I get the sense that not only does there need to be different samples, but different players/instruments playing the different samples to really achieve the \"ensemble\" sound. Also, there is something unique about the physics of real players in an acoustic space and the interactions that take place. I\'m looking at ensembles as another project or possibly an upgrade to this one...I haven\'t decided which yet. At any rate, I think you\'ll be very pleased with the Solo Brass. The reports have been very favorable so far. I\'m just about finished, working on the last buffing right now.

    More later,
    DD

  7. #7

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    Dan, I think you nailed it on the cross fading. I have the AO library, and if you cross fade an exposed (woodwind) instrument, it can sound pretty unnatural. However, if you use the crossfade as a creshendo along with the rest of the orchestra, it can sound pretty convincing.

    So I guess it is a matter of how you use it.

    Looking forward to hearing your solo brass. BTW, I still would love to hear more demos of the solo woodwinds playing some melodic legato stuff. The demo\'s I\'ve heard seemed to concentrate on faster passages.

  8. #8
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    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    I have been using the Dan Dean Woodwinds quite a bit for the last couple months. Very nice library. These samples are usually the 1st instrument in each section. I mix instruments in each section with AO and Xsample samples as this eliminates phasing problems. I also detune the instruments slightly which helps when they play unison and gives more of an ensemble sound. Personally, I don\'t use ensemble samples as many woodwind lines don\'t play unison for very long.

    I purchased mine from http://www.jacksmusicstore.com/ for $384 including shipping. Received it in a couple days.

    Dan,

    I\'m getting excited about the brass. I hope that you add some crossfades even with a little bit of phasing.

  9. #9

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    Haydn....

    Jack Kicks *** !

    I used to go to MIDI classics fo a lot of stuff...but hmmmm.... Most of Jack\'s prices either beat them or are the same.... there are still some libraries that are at MIDI classics that aren\'t at Jack\'s (ILIO/spectrasonics stuff)

    but anyways thanx buying today, sometimes I love the internet

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    Really...I am an Idiot

  10. #10

    Re: Dan Dean WW question/idea

    Dan-

    Of course hiring real players to play in ensembles is the \"best\"

    Are any of the Crossfade/layer articulations still lying around? I need to make a macro in the editer that converts velocity switched instruments into layers automatically...if its possible

    Are there crecendo samples in the library,..howabout phrases? I\'m sure its possible to make some \"expressive\" lines with some samples that move from the different dynamics.....it may take some different techniques but ...life\'s never easy


    Jamieh-

    Agreed, sometimes it works and sometimesit doesn\'t. Also there are WAY MORE dynamic layers in teh DD stuff so It might sound even more weird. Then again I wonder what it sounds like with only 2/3 layers



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    Really...I am an Idiot

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