• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Topic: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Sometimes a work gets written regardless of the composer's intent. When I started this I was under the influence of Mahler's Kindertotenlieder - particularly the winds in the first 4 songs - and (while not hoping for anything like Mahler) was expecting something in that mood. But then the music took over and I got something completely different.

    http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...songID=9221644

    I'm not done with it, but I think it's ready for feedback.

    Pat

    P.S. A musicologist would probably argue with the term "fugue". Ok.
    "Adagio, Allegro, and Fuguish thing".

  2. #2

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    I think I can indeed hear Mahlerian woodwinds, e.g. after the 1:30 mark. The strings on the other hand sound more neo-classical (to me). That's to be expected in a fugue, but it also holds true in the adagio. I don't know how you wrote it, but there seems to be a rhythmical constant (mainly in the strings) throughout the piece, which I like. The music is not easy to get into. It's interesting, and the woodwinds play some nice phrases. The adagio is good, and I always like a fugue. And Mahlerian influences are always good.

    That said, the rendering doesn't make it easy to listen to, and it lacks dynamics, which could help focus the attention. The strings sound rather harsh and lifeless, while the woodwinds sound ok, and the bass is mostly missing. I can imagine you don't like to spend much time on tweaking the sound (and I know, editing 7 minutes of music does take a lot of time), but it's a bit of a pity. Bringing out melodic lines, or strengthening the bass line, and playing a bit with the tempo could help. A lower tempo in the fugue could help too, I think.

    Concluding, the composition a good job, but the sound lets it down a bit.
    Theo

  3. #3

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Thanks for the listen and the comments. I've had about 5, maybe 6 slightly different versions out there I first posted the link (and at least one more is coming soon), but they are compositional changes. None of them have addressed the problems you commented on.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    That said, the rendering doesn't make it easy to listen to, and it lacks dynamics, which could help focus the attention.
    This seems to be a persistent problem of mine. I write my music in Sibelius. Even though the score has dynamics from ppp to fff the heard range seems pretty small. If I watch any instrument in the Aria console I see the mod wheel spinning around from low teens to high 90s so I suspect the problem lies in my style of composition rather than the tools. There's usually a crescendo on one instrument while there's a diminuendo on another; they effect is a constant level. I'll have to do something about that, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    The strings sound rather harsh and lifeless, while the woodwinds sound ok, and the bass is mostly missing.
    Yup. I have trouble with strings.

    The double bass is the only real bass instrument I have in the piece. I had more for it but it stuck out like a sore thumb(even when soft) so I removed most of it. Maybe I should add some other bass instruments: tuba, contra-bassoon, etc. Or use the bassoon's lower register.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    I can imagine you don't like to spend much time on tweaking the sound (and I know, editing 7 minutes of music does take a lot of time) ...
    For instance, none. As I've said in other threads, I tend to be more interested in the composition than in the rendered sound ... except where poor sound reflects poor composition.

    I'm going to get a faster, bigger PC soon. Maybe I'll look into getting a Sequencer then, too, and see if I can learn to edit my compositions and make them sound a bit better. But that takes time away from my already terribly slow composing.

    I probably should find some other place to post my compositions since I take so little time making my work sound good. It is really not fair to the Garritan products. But I don't know where else to get feedback on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    Bringing out melodic lines, or strengthening the bass line, and playing a bit with the tempo could help. A lower tempo in the fugue could help too, I think.
    Bringing out the melodic lines is actually difficult in almost everything I've written (a pretty small list so far) because to the extent a melody line exists, it rarely spends much time on any one instrument; I typically pass it off to another instrument after a few notes. And there's rarely an accompaniment; there's usually a counter melody. But I'll see what I can do.

    I'll see what I can do about the bass. I really don't know how to work with a bass line since, as I just said, I tend to think in terms of melody and counter melody.

    Your comment about the tempo is interesting. I took the opposite tack - I made the fugue faster, and made the code even faster yet. Maybe I'd better rethink that.

    Thanks again for listening. More comments would be appreciated.

    Pat

  4. #4

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Quote Originally Posted by pokeefe View Post
    A musicologist would probably argue with the term "fugue". Ok.
    "Adagio, Allegro, and Fuguish thing".
    Got a good laugh out of that. lol

    Let them be picky about classifying music if they wish. They're only so picky because the wish the could be the ones writing it.

  5. #5

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    I think I can indeed hear Mahlerian woodwinds, e.g. after the 1:30 mark.
    Actually, I'm not sure I hear them. The inspiration was there but the ability and technique wasn't. Anyway, the music had other plans of it's own.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    ...The music is not easy to get into.
    I'm not sure if you are referring to the rendering (which we all know is poor) or the music itself. In a new version out there I've tried to incorporate some of your thoughts o both the rendering and the composition.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    ... the rendering doesn't make it easy to listen to, and it lacks dynamics, which could help focus the attention.
    I think there is a problem within Sibelius or in the Sibelius/Aria interface that limits the dynamic range, but most of this was my composing. I've improved some of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    The strings sound rather harsh and lifeless
    This is still mostly the case. There are a few places where I've softened the attack (velocity) which reduced harshness, but I've got a LOT more work. I haven't started on the lifelessness. (I might never get to that part.)

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    ... the bass is mostly missing.
    I've added a bit, but more work is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    Bringing out melodic lines
    I've done a little of this - in some cases making the melodic line a bit stronger; in more cases making the counter melodies quieter. (As I said earlier, there is really no place where there is an "accompaniment" to a melody.)

    BTW, about half way through the Allegro the theme from the Adagio comes back in. I purposely have this buried in the background by the Allegro themes doodling around in the foreground. If anything, I need to make that Adagio theme less apparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    A lower tempo in the fugue could help too, I think.
    I tried that. I've taken it down to the tempo of the Allegro section; anything slower just doesn't work. One of the fugue's counter-subjects is a upward run. It just doesn't work as a walk. Any slower and I'll have to change the counter-subject to something else. In fact, I'll probably put it back up to it's original faster tempo.

    Pat

  6. #6

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Now that I listen to it again, the opening theme seems a bit Mahlerian to me too. I can imagine a bariton singing that in German. It's going to be a dramatic text.
    The inspiration was there but the ability and technique wasn't.
    Who can compare himself to Mahler...
    I'm not sure if you are referring to the rendering (which we all know is poor) or the music itself.
    I was referring to both. The music itself is not an easy listen. It requires a bit of work, but it seems the new rendering makes the whole a bit clearer. The strings still sound dry and stiff, but the change from Adagio to Allegro is clearer, as are main thematic lines in the different instruments. I still find the woodwinds the most attractive part of this composition.
    (As I said earlier, there is really no place where there is an "accompaniment" to a melody.)
    But even in a Bach fugue for harpsichord, the player tries to separate the lines, in order to help the listener. I've got the feeling this version succeeds better in helping the listener understand your ideas. Then again, I've heard it more often now, so perhaps it's me who's getting accustomed...
    One of the fugue's counter-subjects is a upward run. It just doesn't work as a walk. Any slower and I'll have to change the counter-subject to something else.
    Music has a will of its own, sometimes, that's true. We also have different ears, each of us. Something that doesn't work for you, might work for me, and vice versa. If you feel the music has to be a certain way, you cannot be wrong. You don't write music to please others (unless this has to become Eminem's next hit record...). It's nice when others appreciate the aspects you tried to convey, though. Is there a reason you speed up at the end, BTW?

    It's a good work, and you can be proud of yourself. It's not easy to write a consistent piece of music of more than 30 seconds, and a fugue is even harder, and yours sounds quite natural.
    Theo

  7. #7

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    ... The music itself is not an easy listen. It requires a bit of work
    Hopefully that work turns up something worth while rather than being effort wasted looking for something that isn't there. I'd like to think there is some depth to the piece, but I'm no judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    ... it seems the new rendering makes the whole a bit clearer. The strings still sound dry and stiff, but the change from Adagio to Allegro is clearer, as are main thematic lines in the different instruments. I still find the woodwinds the most attractive part of this composition.
    I've spent some time time trying to make the thematic lines of the adagio a bit clearer. Somewhere along the line the adagio got a bit slower, too. I'm trying to make the strings better, but it's trick doing it in Sibelius. There are more changes before I'm done.

    I find woodwinds the best instruments in GPO4. I think they sound really good all on their own. That probably makes me a bit more careful when I write the wind parts.

    But even in a Bach fugue for harpsichord, the player tries to separate the lines, in order to help the listener. I've got the feeling this version succeeds better in helping the listener understand your ideas. Then again, I've heard it more often now, so perhaps it's me who's getting accustomed...

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    Music has a will of its own, sometimes, that's true. ... It's nice when others appreciate the aspects you tried to convey, though. Is there a reason you speed up at the end, BTW?
    The music had a will of its own; it wanted the end to be faster.

    That coda (but not it's tempo) has gone through many changes and I'm not at all satisfied with it yet. Maybe it will be be slower by the time I'm done ... but don't count on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLWrd View Post
    It's a good work, and you can be proud of yourself. It's not easy to write a consistent piece of music of more than 30 seconds, and a fugue is even harder, and yours sounds quite natural.
    Many thanks for the kind words.

    Pat

  8. #8

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    New version uploaded yesterday; newer version uploaded today. Improvement (I hope) in the dynamics. Rewritten coda, and more rewriting to come. Removal (or at least burial) of the unintentional quote from Praetorius's Terpsicore. String sounds still a major problem. (I guess I'm going to have to finally break down and get a sequencer. ) Tempos are pretty much back to the original ones except that the Adagio is a bit slower. (The fugue just doesn't want to be slow.)

    Pat

  9. #9
    Senior Member rpearl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    1,904

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Very secure writing - it never lost its sense of direction. The pacing was also really well done. I can't add anything about the rendering ( an area I know too little about...), but I do think the last chord was a bit abrupt. There is such a build up to it, my ear expected something more triumphant - or at least longer!

    Really well done!
    Ron Pearl

    Website:

    ronaldmpearl.com

    myspace:

    http://myspace.com/rmpearl

  10. #10

    Re: Adagio, Allegro, and Fugue

    Quote Originally Posted by rpearl View Post
    ... but I do think the last chord was a bit abrupt. There is such a build up to it, my ear expected something more triumphant - or at least longer!
    Hmm. That's the one note of the coda I hadn't thought of changing (except for a brief and unsuccessful try at making it a minor chord ). You're right; it needed something, and I've given it something. I also tweaked the beginning of the coda a bit. Hopefully it's better now.

    Pat

Go Back to forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •