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Topic: Creating a full orchestra

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  1. #1

    Creating a full orchestra

    Has anyone tried using all the solo plr patches to create their ensemble? Like having 12 solo plr for the 1st violin section and 10 solo plr for 2nd violin section and so on. How tasking is it to the system and is it better than using the section version of the patches?

    I will probably try it this weekend and see if my computer can handle it. I just need to figure out what song to try with it.

    Erik

  2. #2

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Hi Eric

    I think the general rule is not to use multiple instances of the sample instrument, at least when playing the same line of music, because this can (or rather will) lead to "phasing" problems.

    Phasing is an effect sometimes deliberately used by guitarists, but not appropriate for real instruments.

    Peter

  3. #3

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Quote Originally Posted by rsfreak View Post
    Has anyone tried using all the solo plr patches to create their ensemble? Like having 12 solo plr for the 1st violin section and 10 solo plr for 2nd violin section and so on. How tasking is it to the system and is it better than using the section version of the patches?

    I will probably try it this weekend and see if my computer can handle it. I just need to figure out what song to try with it.

    Erik
    Yes,
    I made a chamber string ensemble just some days ago, built on solo patches. In my setup I gave every section a divisi as well. I am happy with it although I just started to experiment with GPO 1 week ago, so probably I will change it again after a while. It does push my powerpc mac a little bit, I cannot use any reverb because it is choking my mac.

    André
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  4. #4

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Ah the good ol phasing issue, thanks for the heads up Peter. In the manual it stated that phasing problems can occur when playing the plr patches with solo ks patches. I didnt realize that stacking pls patches could also cause that. I'll have to play around with it some. I'll record something with a few plr patches in its own separate track and convert it to audio and check the wave for phasing irregularities. I figure I'll try and stack as much as 16 separate plr patches and see how well it holds up before it starts to have issues. I will let you know what comes from this experiment.

    How is your chamber ensemble set up Andre? How many solo plr patches do you have per section? Have you noticed any phasing problems at all? Congratulations on GPO Andre. I too just picked it up last weekend. I am having a blast working with it and trying to learn as much as I could so I can properly utilize it. I mainly got it for doing my own personal mockups and for short independent films. Hopefully one day I'll actually get a real orchestra to play my stuff......

    Thank you both for your time and guidance.

    Erik

  5. #5

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Quote Originally Posted by rsfreak View Post
    Ah the good ol phasing issue, thanks for the heads up Peter. In the manual it stated that phasing problems can occur when playing the plr patches with solo ks patches. I didnt realize that stacking pls patches could also cause that. I'll have to play around with it some. I'll record something with a few plr patches in its own separate track and convert it to audio and check the wave for phasing irregularities. I figure I'll try and stack as much as 16 separate plr patches and see how well it holds up before it starts to have issues. I will let you know what comes from this experiment.

    How is your chamber ensemble set up Andre? How many solo plr patches do you have per section? Have you noticed any phasing problems at all? Congratulations on GPO Andre. I too just picked it up last weekend. I am having a blast working with it and trying to learn as much as I could so I can properly utilize it. I mainly got it for doing my own personal mockups and for short independent films. Hopefully one day I'll actually get a real orchestra to play my stuff......

    Thank you both for your time and guidance.

    Erik
    Hi Erik, nice to meet a GPO beginner! Not sure how phasing sounds like so I cannot respond that that really. probably I would hate it when I hear it.

    My chamber template looks like this:

    I made a divided setup for every string section in case I need this:
    1st violins, 1st division: violin 1 - player 1, violin 1 - player 2, violin 1 - player 3, violin 1 solo KS. All routed to mid1 channel 1.

    1st violins, 2st division: violin 3 - player 3, violin 3 - player 3, violin 3 - player 3, violin 3 solo KS. All routed to mid1 channel 2.

    I went like this for every string section, trying to avoid using the same string patches as much as possible in the division setup for the same instrument section.

    The total setup is:
    8 1st violins
    6 2nd violins
    4 violas
    3 vc
    2 db

    I just finished a full string orchestra setup as well, sounds pretty nice actually.

    16 1st violins
    14 2nd violins
    12 violas
    10 vc
    8 db


    I have problems though that the velocity does not really responds very well in GPO, no problem while playing on my digital piano using other sample libraries. Is this something you experience as well? If not, how can I fix this? Everything I play now, hard or soft, sounds pretty much the same.

    André
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  6. #6

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    There was some discussion on this recently, and Arvid clarified the situation well here:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...l=1#post658113

    So, I think you could use one copy of each of the available solo patches to form a small (chamber) group of players, as i think Andreas may have done, but you would need several copies of each solo patch in order to form a full orchestra, unless you used the solo parts from separate libraries.

    Even the, you would really need to create separate midi tracks to control each part separately, as with guitar multi-tracking, in order to maintain some clarity of the parts.

  7. #7

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jeffrey Gale View Post
    There was some discussion on this recently, and Arvid clarified the situation well here:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...l=1#post658113

    So, I think you could use one copy of each of the available solo patches to form a small (chamber) group of players, as i think Andreas may have done, but you would need several copies of each solo patch in order to form a full orchestra, unless you used the solo parts from separate libraries.

    Even the, you would really need to create separate midi tracks to control each part separately, as with guitar multi-tracking, in order to maintain some clarity of the parts.
    The way I did it was by sending every solo violin solo to the same midi channel, this works really good. So in my setup, every violin patch in 1st violins group is send to channel 1. The 2nd violins are all going to channel 2, etc.

    This way I can control the automation for every string section in total. If I want to control a single violin within the group, I can do this in the Aria instance of this group.

    here is a bounce I made with this setup:
    https://www.box.net/shared/17s1sxdfii
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  8. #8

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Andre I see how you are setting up your ensemble and i think that that would probably be the way to go. It also saves you computer resources for other things. I aslo agree with Peter on having each instrument on its track if more control over that instrument is required but will take more computer resources. I will play around with this when i get home later tonight. I did notice the velocity with GPO is pretty constant. Maybe tweaking the controller velocity setting might help. Ill have to play around with that too.

    As far as phasing Andre. In a sound engineering stand point, It deals with positive and negative waveforms.

    Lets say you have a waveform signal (for example a violin sound) and add another signal of the same source on top of that you'll end up with a higher db signal.....It should sound louder. But lets say for some reason one of the sources ended up with an inverted wave pattern. You now have one signal in the positive direction and one in the negative. They will tend to cancel each other out and have this empty feel of space in the sound. Its like hooking up one of your stereo speakers in a backwards polarity. you'll get a really weird sound from your speakers. I am no expert on the subject but hope to be in the near future.

    I will definitely try out your ensemble setup. Thanks again for the info guys

    Erik

  9. #9

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasvanHaren View Post
    The way I did it was by sending every solo violin solo to the same midi channel, this works really good. So in my setup, every violin patch in 1st violins group is send to channel 1. The 2nd violins are all going to channel 2, etc.

    This way I can control the automation for every string section in total. If I want to control a single violin within the group, I can do this in the Aria instance of this group.]

    Andre are you able to automate the mixer inside Aria while working with Logic?

    In Protools the mixer faders in Aria are tied to the Protools faders. If I have 3 instuments in midi channel 1, all 3 of those instrument will react as if they are group together inside Aria and to the sigle protools fader runnign midi channel 1. Ill have to research this some more.

  10. #10

    Re: Creating a full orchestra

    Velocity doesn't affect volume as you are expecting because GPO is not programmed that way.
    Velocity affects attack.
    The mod wheel controls volume.

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