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Topic: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

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  1. #1

    Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    I am trying to get as close as possible to getting a realistic sound from my music in GPO and recorded the first couple of bars from Beethoven 3th symphony and compared it with a real live orchestra recording. The real orchestra sounds fatter but also, and this is the thing I cannot get in my other orchestral GPO bounces, the real recording seems to have more depth. How do I get this in the GPO bounce?

    Here are the 2 examples I am working with, hopefully someone knows what I am trying to reach and know how to get it!

    Beethoven: Real orchestra
    Beethoven: GPO orchestra

    André
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  2. #2

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    the GPO version seems to be lacking a bit in the bass department.

    but then, don't forget, you'll NEVER get it to sound exactly like one of those fine recordings by the best orchestras, in the best halls, recorded by the best engineers (even those orchestras don't sound like that without a bit of help from those miracle workers).

    don't forget. GPO cost $200.

    The live orchestra recording cost $100,000+.

  3. #3

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    Quote Originally Posted by qccowboy View Post
    the GPO version seems to be lacking a bit in the bass department.

    but then, don't forget, you'll NEVER get it to sound exactly like one of those fine recordings by the best orchestras, in the best halls, recorded by the best engineers (even those orchestras don't sound like that without a bit of help from those miracle workers).

    don't forget. GPO cost $200.

    The live orchestra recording cost $100,000+.
    Still, I am getting very close now! Ver yexciting to try to get that sound. But I am lacking still a way to push the complete sound more into the back. I want to experience it as being an audience in the back of the hall, how do I get this?
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  4. #4

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasvanHaren View Post
    Still, I am getting very close now! Ver yexciting to try to get that sound.
    Your GPO realization actually sounds pretty good, although I agree that it's a bit lacking in the bass end of the cellos. I might also be inclined to shave off a bit of the higher-end frequencies in the violins.

    By the way, I tried posting an answer to your question about how to equalize an orchestral piece. Unfortunately, it was very early this morning and my brain could only produce a half-baked response. I went back and posted another message that's a little more in-depth (and hopefully more useful than my first attempt). If you haven't seen it, you may want to go back to that thread and have a look.

    But I am lacking still a way to push the complete sound more into the back. I want to experience it as being an audience in the back of the hall, how do I get this?
    See pages 56 and 57 of the GPO4 manual on how to set depth for your instrument configurations. BTW #2 - this is a new feature with the ARIA player, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with it myself. If it works as advertised, this will be great for designing more realistic sound spaces. As much as I enjoyed previous incarnations of GPO, it did bug me a little that the orchestra would sound like it was lined up against a wall.

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  5. #5

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    notice how everyone is talking about tone quality?

    Notice how the GPO version's most dominant note in the first two chords is G,
    but the real orchestra is the more logical Eb?

    To me, it is more about the balance (voicing) of the chords that is incorrect when comparing,
    not equalization.

    Dan

  6. #6

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    I don't think it will be ready in time for the tutorial contest, but I am writing a tutorial on this subject in a general way, because, like mixing and other procedures, there is no such thing as a "one-size-fits-all" approach to this topic.

    I would also like to recommend the time-honored classic book, "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath. It is a gold mine.

    And qccowboy is spot on -- a good orchestra costs about $100,000 per hour of rehearsal time.

    Arvid
    Arvid Hand
    Theory-Comp./Piano
    ASCAP

  7. #7

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    Quote Originally Posted by DPDAN View Post
    notice how everyone is talking about tone quality?

    Notice how the GPO version's most dominant note in the first two chords is G,
    but the real orchestra is the more logical Eb?

    To me, it is more about the balance (voicing) of the chords that is incorrect when comparing,
    not equalization.

    Dan
    Yes, I was surprised when reading and recording Beethoven's score that the strings had a g, but then I saw the flutes on the e flat and realized that they are the one who are playing the tonic. indeed a good lesson here. Thanks!

    André
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  8. #8

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    Quote Originally Posted by bionicbub View Post
    I don't think it will be ready in time for the tutorial contest, but I am writing a tutorial on this subject in a general way, because, like mixing and other procedures, there is no such thing as a "one-size-fits-all" approach to this topic.

    I would also like to recommend the time-honored classic book, "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath. It is a gold mine.

    Arvid
    That would be great to have your tutorial! Is it going to be written or a video?And I should have a look for this book, sounds like a good investment.

    André
    You can listen to my music on: www.andrevanharen.com

  9. #9

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasvanHaren View Post
    That would be great to have your tutorial! Is it going to be written or a video?And I should have a look for this book, sounds like a good investment.

    André
    My tutorial will be text only. I have no capability to produce a video. (Maybe one of these days...?)

    The book I mentioned, "The Guide to MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath is now in the Fourth (4th) Edition. Please look for that edition. Most of my tutorial information will be taken from that book, so if you buy that book, you will not need to read my tutorial, except for the personal information and insights that I have picked up over the years that expand a little bit on Gilreath's instructions. He has specific information for each instrument and instrument groups in the orchestra, but I will not put that into my tutorial, which is more general in nature.

    Just one tiny example from his book are the diagrams he has made showing how to properly pan the instruments.
    Arvid Hand
    Theory-Comp./Piano
    ASCAP

  10. #10

    Re: Beethoven 3th: GPO versus Live recording...

    Quote Originally Posted by bionicbub View Post
    a good orchestra costs about $100,000 per hour of rehearsal time
    Arvid, may I ask by which source this information is backed?

    You are certainly aware of the national-dependant union orchestra recording session fees, are you?
    All your strings belong to me!
    www.strings-on-demand.com

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