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Topic: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

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  1. #1

    Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Is there a way of getting Finale 2011 to recognize the Steinway for playback of hairpin cresc and dim?

  2. #2

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    I think all you'll need to do is to set Finale to send increasing MIDI velocity values during a crescendo, and decreasing velocities during a diminuendo. I'm far from a Finale expert, but I'd expect that would be how Finale would respond to hairpins by default. Maybe someone who knows the software better (I don't have it at hand right now) could respond. I'm assuming you're otherwise able to use the Steinway plugin within Finale, but that you're just not getting response to hairpins?

  3. #3

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    This is something I wondered about too. That is since the piano is a velocity based instrument for volume yet I have Human Playback settings set to use CC1 for volume I wondered how it would work at all.

    Now there is probably alot going on under the covers for Human Playback so maybe when Finale sees that it's a piano system it interprets everything differently.

    steve winkler

  4. #4

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Quote Originally Posted by swinkler View Post
    This is something I wondered about too. That is since the piano is a velocity based instrument for volume yet I have Human Playback settings set to use CC1 for volume I wondered how it would work at all.

    Now there is probably alot going on under the covers for Human Playback so maybe when Finale sees that it's a piano system it interprets everything differently.

    steve winkler
    I was wondering about this myself, as I have a piano sonata in progress, and I wanted to take full advantage of the Finale 2010/GPO integration when I redo my original GPO2 performance with GPO4.

    This is what Finale's online manual says about setting dynamics and volume through HP Preferences:

    Type: Automatic • Key Velocity Only • Volume Contr. Only. Click this drop-down menu and choose Key Velocity Only to apply crescendo/diminuendo effects as Key Velocity data (generally used for non-sustaining instruments). See Key velocity. Choose Volume Contr. Only to apply crescendo/diminuendo effects as Volume continuous data (generally used for sustaining instruments). Choose Automatic to instruct Human Playback to decide which type of data to apply for crescendo and diminuendos. Note that key velocity is always used for piano staves regardless of this setting.

    I haven't even had a chance to get my feet wet using GPO through Finale, but I hope the above may shed some light on the subject.

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  5. #5

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Thanks for the quote Steve. Now that I'm in front of Finale (2009 for me) I see that the menu is labeled "Dynamic Approach for Sustaining Instruments". And the excerpt from the manual tells me there's something hidden in HP that we can't tweak.

    I haven't changed my dynamic setting because some time ago there was a known bug with strings not responding to dynamics properly unless you manually set it to "Modulation (CC#1) + Velocity for Attack". I've left it there ever since.

  6. #6

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Quote Originally Posted by swinkler View Post
    Thanks for the quote Steve. Now that I'm in front of Finale (2009 for me) I see that the menu is labeled "Dynamic Approach for Sustaining Instruments". And the excerpt from the manual tells me there's something hidden in HP that we can't tweak.

    I haven't changed my dynamic setting because some time ago there was a known bug with strings not responding to dynamics properly unless you manually set it to "Modulation (CC#1) + Velocity for Attack". I've left it there ever since.
    Boy, I feel like I'm at such a disadvantage here. I was a Finale 3.1 user for the longest time, and I went straight from that to Finale 2010 right before I bought my new computer in September. Although I suppose I shouldn't knock it until I try it, I have to admit that I'm somewhat sceptical about how well the whole HP thing works even in 2010. However, since the piano's dynamics are key velocity-driven, one could simply bypass HP for dynamics altogether and use the MIDI tool to set and scale velocity values for crescendos/decrescendos. I honestly think that might be easier than trying to define hairpins for playback.

    Steve
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  7. #7

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Well I was looking on the Finale forum to see if this problem was discussed there and I seemed to run across someone saying HP worked for piano in 2010.

    Other than that I didn't get anything helpful about this. qc also posted a question about this on the Finale forum.

    I was a Finale 3.1 user as well. Boy those were the days huh? I went from that to '97 where the interface generally speaking is what it is today. It's been in the last few years (I think since 2006) where HP came to Finale. I have to say it's been a good thing in my opinion. Up until a few years ago my primary use for Finale was doing copy work for recording sessions and such. My workflow and keyboard shortcuts, etc. were way different than they are now. Now it's a composition tool primarily. So for me the addition of more advanced playback is a great thing. Just dig in and ask lots of questions.

    By the way qccowboy is one of the best at rendering good playback from Finale. Look for some of his posts where he spells out details about how he gets the results he does. And check out the Listening Room on the Garritan forum for examples by him and etLux who both use Finale exclusively and get good results.

  8. #8

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    I've been experimenting a bit since I posted my initial query, and am seeing a few issues.

    I find that there seem to be files (mostly older, imported files from previous versions of Finale) where hairpins don't always work - and again, it seems to be erratic. Two different files from the same older version of Finale will show distinct differences in their handling of hairpins.

    So far, I've had no trouble with files created directly in Finale 2011 (the version I am presently using of Finale).

    HumanPlayback is, to put it mildly, absolutely miraculous. However, it is also a bit arcane and difficult to tweak. The expressivity of the recordings one can render just with Finale + HumanPlayback are, at times, almost eerily realistic.

  9. #9

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Quote Originally Posted by qccowboy View Post
    I've been experimenting a bit since I posted my initial query, and am seeing a few issues.

    I find that there seem to be files (mostly older, imported files from previous versions of Finale) where hairpins don't always work - and again, it seems to be erratic. Two different files from the same older version of Finale will show distinct differences in their handling of hairpins.

    So far, I've had no trouble with files created directly in Finale 2011 (the version I am presently using of Finale).

    HumanPlayback is, to put it mildly, absolutely miraculous. However, it is also a bit arcane and difficult to tweak. The expressivity of the recordings one can render just with Finale + HumanPlayback are, at times, almost eerily realistic.
    Okay, so I guess I'll have to put my scepticism about HP on hold at least long enough to give it a serious chance. The frustrating thing for me is that I've had pretty much no time for working on music since I acquired my new toys over the last few months. However, a large accrual of vacation time has blessed me with an extended Christmas vacation, so I'm off work until the 3rd. I plan on using as much of that time as possible to bear down on my music projects, which will include learning the intricacies of the interface between Finale 2010 and GPO 4 along with HP. I'm not sure if my technical skills would be up to getting the most out of it, but if HP can do a lot of what I had to do through my sequencer in the past, I won't turn that down!

    Steve
    Last edited by Steve Johnson; 12-18-2010 at 02:24 AM. Reason: Corrected typo. I'm so picky about detals!
    If you'd like to hear a couple of pieces I might actually finish someday, please visit my virtual concert hall.

  10. #10

    Re: Steinway + Finale 2011 + hairpins?

    Quote Originally Posted by qccowboy View Post
    I've been experimenting a bit since I posted my initial query, and am seeing a few issues.

    I find that there seem to be files (mostly older, imported files from previous versions of Finale) where hairpins don't always work - and again, it seems to be erratic. Two different files from the same older version of Finale will show distinct differences in their handling of hairpins.

    So far, I've had no trouble with files created directly in Finale 2011 (the version I am presently using of Finale).

    HumanPlayback is, to put it mildly, absolutely miraculous. However, it is also a bit arcane and difficult to tweak. The expressivity of the recordings one can render just with Finale + HumanPlayback are, at times, almost eerily realistic.
    So was your initial query about files you imported from older versions? I'm just curious because I'm thinking about getting the Basic Steinway and upgrading Finale. I just want to make sure I understand what the issues might be if there are any.

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