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Topic: JABB, Reaper....help!

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  1. #1

    JABB, Reaper....help!

    Hi all,

    I'm new here and figured I'd introduce myself by begging for your help

    I purchased Garritan JABB and I'm using Reaper as my DAW.

    EDIT: I also posted this in the Virtual Instruments forum.

    So far I have recorded one song, but I used a separate instance of the Aria player for each track in my horn section. Now, I know that I don't have to do that...I know I can use one instance of JABB loaded with up to 16 instruments and record that way. The problem is that I have no idea how to set that up.

    I have read every thread I can find on this issue...here, over at the Reaper forums, everywhere I can find some info I've read it. And not just information pertaining ONLY to JABB and Reaper; I have read as much as I could find about setting up different multi output vsti's in a number of different DAW's. I have tried everything I can think of for about a week straight now and I'm still not getting it to work.

    Part of the problem is that I'm very new to recording and I don't yet have a clear picture in my head of things like signal flow, channels, sends, receives etc...I can't picture where the signal is going once it leaves my MIDI controller. What does it hit first? Where does it go from there? Etc etc....

    So I've decided to try posting here to see if I can get any help.

    Would some kind Reaper user (or anyone) be willing to walk me step by step through this configuration and explain why we set it up in such a way?

    I know it's a lot to ask but I'm at my wits end and I'm not sure what else to do.

    So far I've been doing this:

    -"Insert virtual instrument on new track" (I've been selecting Aria Player multi, 32 out)

    -"Reaper will build the following tracks for this effect
    - Stereo 1/2>New Track 2 'Out 1'
    - Stereo 3/4>New Track 2 'Out 3'
    - Stereo 5/6>New Track 5 'Out 5'
    .Etc
    .Etc
    .Etc all the way up to
    - Stereo 31/32>New Track 17 'Out 31'

    (At this point I'm a bit baffled but I click OK and let Reaper build those tracks.)

    Now, I am under the assumption that there is a master MIDI track (Track 1) that receives input from my controller and then sends that along to the other tracks, and if I have the other tracks set up correctly...what? At this point I just can't visualize what is going on.

    Next step:

    - I choose an instrument in the Aria player's first slot (let's say Piano).

    - I play a few notes on my controller and I get sound....great! Track one is showing that it is receiving MIDI data and I can hear the Piano.

    - I choose another instrument in slot 2 of Aria (Let's say Tenor sax)

    - In the Aria player, I DE-SELECT slot one (Piano) and SELECT slot 2 (Tenor)

    - I play a few notes and.....I hear Piano (slot 1!!)

    At this point I start messing around with MIDI channels, I/O on tracks in Reaper, Output in Aria etc etc...to no avail.

    I'm stumped. I've done my best to explain what I am doing above...where am I going wrong? What am I missing?

    Some introduction eh?!

    Best,
    Cal

  2. #2

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Hey Calaban,
    Welcome to the forums.

    I actually only do the "build inputs" action for the Aria player.
    Track 1 would have the vsti (16ch)
    Track 2-17 would each pass on only the midi data to track 1.
    When you record you will only be recording the midi data on tracks 2-17, but still hear its audio through track 1. Make sure each midi track is armed to record the midi data.

    For mixdown I usually add reverb etc. on track 1 which will be applied to all instruments.

    If you wish to process each instrument or section of instruments separately then building outputs for each channel is probably better for you.

    To keep track management under control it helps to put all 16 output tracks in a folder.

    Good luck.

  3. #3

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
    I have read every thread I can find on this issue...here, over at the Reaper forums, everywhere I can find some info I've read it. And not just information pertaining ONLY to JABB and Reaper; I have read as much as I could find about setting up different multi output vsti's in a number of different DAW's. I have tried everything I can think of for about a week straight now and I'm still not getting it to work.

    Best,
    Cal
    Insert Track
    Choose 'Add Effect' in the track you've just inserted.
    Browse to find the plugin (VSTI) you want to insert.
    Once the plugin is inserted put your mouse cursor in a blank area within the effects window.
    RIGHT click in an open(blank) area in the track effects window
    Look for and scroll down to "Insert 16 Midi Tracks" and choose that option.

    Now you should have sixteen tracks all set up to transmit on midi channels 1 through 16. The slave/master settings will be all done for you. Go back to your Aria Player or GPO plugin and load 16 sounds (if you want) then go out and label each of the tracks you've just inserted with the appropriate sound names. Press the record button on what instrument you want to record and midi data will flow to the GPO or Aria plugin.

    Hope this helps.

    TT

  4. #4

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Peter and Martygras,

    Thanks so much for taking the time to help. Between you guys and Oldbob I finally have it up and running so that I only need one instance of Aria to get all my sounds!

    Couple question:

    Marty,

    I'd really like to process effects on the instruments separately,so...

    If you wish to process each instrument or section of instruments separately then building outputs for each channel is probably better for you.
    Would you mind clarifying a bit? I think you mean that you have to split Track 1 (VST track) into different channels so that each effect would be applied only to the instruments residing on each different channel and not all instruments at once...but I'm not certain about that.

    If my understanding of this signal routing is correct (and I'm not sure it is), the signal leaves my MIDI controller, heads into my DAW which routes it to whatever track is armed for recording (2-17...and where it leaves it's MIDI data?), and then heads to Track 1 which has the VST on it which produces the sound.

    If I wanted to add effects on each instrument separately, would I add the effect to Track 1 or the MIDI track I wanted to hear it on (2-17)? And then how do I set up the channels?

    I've tried a bunch of things to make this happen but, my mental picture of the routing is still pretty blurry so I can't see the connections.

    So in a nutshell: Which track do the effects go on? Where do I set up the channels...Aria? Track 1 in/out? Tracks 2-17 in/out? Some combination of all these?

    Peter,

    I tried setting it up the way you explained in the thread you mentioned, and I end up with 33 tracks. Is this correct? One VST track (Track 1) 16 MIDI tracks (2-17) and 16 tracks (tracks 18-33) that receive the output of Track 1 after it has gotten the sounds from Aria?

    I'm pretty confused by all this folks. Thanks for being patient!

    Now when I set it up this way Peter, I always hear the instrument that is on my first MIDI track (track 2) even when it is not armed for recording. When I arm track 3, I hear the instrument on that track AND the instrument on track 2 even though track 2 is not armed. Hmm.

    In addition, when I set it up the way Oldbob told me to...

    Hi Calaban, I don't have the Aria player, but I'm a Reaper user, so here's what I would do:
    1) create a new track
    2) in the fx tab, load Jabb
    3) assign the instruments you need to different midi channels
    4) In Reaper, create a new track, assign your midi keyboard as midi input - in its routing window, set a send to the track where Jabb is loaded, and set send midi channel all to 1
    5) create a second track, assign your midi keyboard as midi input - in its routing window, set a send to the track where Jabb is loaded, and set send midi channel all to 2
    6, 7, 8) ecc...repeat for as many instruments you need... incrementing the channel number
    now when you arm for recording one of the tracks you created, you will be hearing the instrument assigned to that channel, and you'll be able to record separate midi tracks for each... be sure that record monitoring is on (little speaker icon is white)
    Hope I was clear enough!
    ...the VST Track (1) tells me it is receiving from tracks 2-17. When I set it up the way you described, the VST Track (1) tells me it is sending to tracks 2-17. What is going on here?


    I know there is something I'm still missing, but I don't even know the right questions to ask!

    Thanks again for all your help and patience.

    Cal

  5. #5

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Calaban View Post

    I tried setting it up the way you explained in the thread you mentioned, and I end up with 33 tracks. Is this correct? One VST track (Track 1) 16 MIDI tracks (2-17) and 16 tracks (tracks 18-33) that receive the output of Track 1 after it has gotten the sounds from Aria?

    I'd really like to process effects on the instruments separately,so...

    If I wanted to add effects on each instrument separately, would I add the effect to Track 1 or the MIDI track I wanted to hear it on (2-17)? And then how do I set up the channels?

    Cal
    If you set it up this way (33 tracks is correct, by the way), you would put the VST effects on the audio tracks (tracks 18-33). Not sure if your comment about track 1 sending/receiving from tracks 2-17 applies to this 33-track setup, but in case it does, here is what you should have:

    Track 1: Aria Player VSTi
    Tracks 2-17: Tracks with MIDI sends to Track 1
    Tracks 2-18: Tracks receiving audio from Track 1 (each one receiving on a difference set of audio channels)
    Best Regards,
    Ernie

  6. #6
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    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Hi Cal ,

    Hope you're sitting comfortably, because I'm going to start by taking you right back to your original post (otherwise I'll just confuse myself ).

    The setup that Reaper gives you there is correct for the Aria multi player. If you look at the Track Control Panel (TCP) for each track, however, you'll see that tracks 2-17 are each sporting an audio level meter, while track 1 has an input MIDI indicator and output audio meter. This is because all of the outputs are actually audio and the only MIDI so far in the project is what's going into the player on track 1 (you won't hear any output from track 1, however, since Reaper has disabled its "Master/Parent" connection - essentially disconnecting it from the mixer output). Since you're actually hearing audio from the player, therefore, the setup is correct for auditioning the instruments. In order to simplify things a little, I'm going to start from that position and try to get you hearing the channel that you actually want to hear when you play. You will, however, need to record the MIDI data that you're playing eventually as Peter suggests above, since you'll almost certainly need to edit dynamics and controller values to get your JABB instruments sounding at their best when rendering your piece.

    Firstly, I should point out that selecting a channel in the Aria Player's User Interface won't have any effect on the MIDI and that's why the channel didn't change when you wanted it to - selecting an instrument in this way only selects the instrument to be auditioned in Aria's virtual keyboard. MIDI is actually a network system and it carries its channel address information within the MIDI data generated by your controller. The easiest way to change the channel that's being addressed, therefore, is via the channel selector on your controller keyboard! In the event that your controller doesn't have such a feature (or if it's too difficult to access in a hurry), you can always select "1:x" (see your "OldBob" quote) on the track 1 TCP, where x is the channel number you want to hear.

    Secondly, the Aria Player is setup by default so that all of its instrument channels are assigned sequentially to MIDI. Its audio output channels, however, are all set up so that they mix to one master output pair (1/2). If you check the instrument areas on the top of the Player, you'll see the setting "1/2" in each of the channels to the left of the MIDI channel indicator. Click on that indication and you'll get a dropdown menu with assignments from "1/2" to "31/32" so just assign those in the order that Reaper has already suggested (Channel 1 to 1/2, Channel 2 to 3/4 and so on up to 16 to 31/32). Hopefully, you'll now be able to play your keyboard and at least hear the sounds that you're creating going through the right mixer channels in Reaper! (Incidentally, if you're ever confused about where the MIDI is and where the audio is, just check the TCP readouts as per the last paragraph).

    To record MIDI data from your performance, just follow TT's instructions above - thanks to TT incidentally for the MIDI routing tip which I hadn't realised until now. You'll probably have noticed, however, that there's a slight drawback to this MIDI business in Reaper in that - for some strange reason - Reaper creates the MIDI tracks as 2-17, thus shifting your entire audio track block up so that the audio is now coming from 18-33! Fortunately, Reaper changes the audio send assignments automatically and you can simplify the mixer by selecting tracks 2-17 in the track pane, then right-clicking and unchecking "show in mixer view" - at least that way you won't be "tripping over" your MIDI channels when adjusting your instrument levels.

    Provided that you haven't fallen into a catatonic trance somewhere in the middle of reading this post then you should now be well on the way to creating your masterpiece (to share in the Listening Room? ... ).

    I hope, in any event, that this helps illuminate your path through the tunnel a little more!

    All the best,

    Keith

  7. #7

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Jeffrey Gale View Post
    Hi Cal

    So, if your Aria VST was inserted on track 1 (assuming you started from a blank project), you would first have got 16 tracks created for audio (created as tracks 2-17), and then another 16 for midi - these would have been inserted immediately after the track where your VST was, so would have got inserted as tracks in positions 2-17 again (17 not 18?), but the previous stereo tracks would have got pushed down the screen, so become tracks 18-33.

    It may seem like a lot of tracks to manage, but you can group tracks and hide them in the mixer and/or track view (as Keith mentions). And tracks in Reaper can be used either for MIDI or for audio or to hold VSTs etc, or possibly even all three simultaneously if you wanted to (I think!) but it is probably clearer and easier (and no less efficient) to have individual tracks serving a single purpose ... I had over 100 tracks in my last project to process just 18 lines of music, but it was simple and clear enough to manage.

    Interesting to see how different people approach things, so there are things here that I've learned about too. So keep asking the questions as best you can ... I think most people here try to understand and respond to your general needs rather than just specific questions.


    Peter
    It is interesting how people do things. Reaper is pretty flexible in that regards which is one of the things I like about it. On the flip side many find it confusing.

    You mentioned the number of tracks and this is where I like to use folders. I usually drag all my midi tracks up to it's associated instance of Aria. This makes the Aria track the folder which you can collapse and expand as you need.

    I end up doing something similar with audio tracks. I usually group them by instrument family (woodwinds, brass, strings, etc.). I'm not trying to confuse anyone, but it is another option for dealing with what seems like an inordinate number of tracks.

    EDIT: Here's a very quick and dirty tut I did in my "spare" time to demonstrate some of the things we've talked about on this thread. Please forgive me for not using a Garritan plugin as my VST. I'm on my work laptop and don't have much installed. I think you'll get the idea though. It's a windows media file so hopefully you'll be able to view it.
    Steve Winkler GPO4 JAAB3 Finale 2012 Reaper Windows 7 Pro 64-bit VSL SE+

  8. #8

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Everyone,

    Many many thanks for all the help. You are all very patient and I really appreciate it. There is so much well presented information here....it's going to take a while to digest.

    It must seem like I'm struggling with some fairly basic concepts (and I probably am!) but for a newbie like myself this stuff seems pretty daunting. But thanks to all of you I am beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel (which is probably just the start of the next tunnel!).

    I'm going to try the most recent suggestions when I get some time and I'll report back on my progress. I just wanted to say thanks again for your patience and kindness.

    Seems like a really good community here. Hopefully in the future when I get comfortable with these concepts I'll be able to help out another novice like myself.

    Best,
    Cal

  9. #9

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Nuthin basic about it. This is one of the strengths of Reaper. It's ability gives you some very advanced routing options so you can set up templates almost any way you like.

    There's several "sticky" threads over at reaper's forum mostly referring to Kontakt and multiple outs. Apparently it's even more complex to setup, but the strategy is the same.
    http://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20

  10. #10

    Re: JABB, Reaper....help!

    Quote Originally Posted by kastra View Post
    Hi Cal ,

    Hope you're sitting comfortably, because I'm going to start by taking you right back to your original post (otherwise I'll just confuse myself ).

    The setup that Reaper gives you there is correct for the Aria multi player. If you look at the Track Control Panel (TCP) for each track, however, you'll see that tracks 2-17 are each sporting an audio level meter, while track 1 has an input MIDI indicator and output audio meter. This is because all of the outputs are actually audio and the only MIDI so far in the project is what's going into the player on track 1 (you won't hear any output from track 1, however, since Reaper has disabled its "Master/Parent" connection - essentially disconnecting it from the mixer output). Since you're actually hearing audio from the player, therefore, the setup is correct for auditioning the instruments. In order to simplify things a little, I'm going to start from that position and try to get you hearing the channel that you actually want to hear when you play. You will, however, need to record the MIDI data that you're playing eventually as Peter suggests above, since you'll almost certainly need to edit dynamics and controller values to get your JABB instruments sounding at their best when rendering your piece.

    Firstly, I should point out that selecting a channel in the Aria Player's User Interface won't have any effect on the MIDI and that's why the channel didn't change when you wanted it to - selecting an instrument in this way only selects the instrument to be auditioned in Aria's virtual keyboard. MIDI is actually a network system and it carries its channel address information within the MIDI data generated by your controller. The easiest way to change the channel that's being addressed, therefore, is via the channel selector on your controller keyboard! In the event that your controller doesn't have such a feature (or if it's too difficult to access in a hurry), you can always select "1:x" (see your "OldBob" quote) on the track 1 TCP, where x is the channel number you want to hear.

    Secondly, the Aria Player is setup by default so that all of its instrument channels are assigned sequentially to MIDI. Its audio output channels, however, are all set up so that they mix to one master output pair (1/2). If you check the instrument areas on the top of the Player, you'll see the setting "1/2" in each of the channels to the left of the MIDI channel indicator. Click on that indication and you'll get a dropdown menu with assignments from "1/2" to "31/32" so just assign those in the order that Reaper has already suggested (Channel 1 to 1/2, Channel 2 to 3/4 and so on up to 16 to 31/32). Hopefully, you'll now be able to play your keyboard and at least hear the sounds that you're creating going through the right mixer channels in Reaper! (Incidentally, if you're ever confused about where the MIDI is and where the audio is, just check the TCP readouts as per the last paragraph).

    To record MIDI data from your performance, just follow TT's instructions above - thanks to TT incidentally for the MIDI routing tip which I hadn't realised until now. You'll probably have noticed, however, that there's a slight drawback to this MIDI business in Reaper in that - for some strange reason - Reaper creates the MIDI tracks as 2-17, thus shifting your entire audio track block up so that the audio is now coming from 18-33! Fortunately, Reaper changes the audio send assignments automatically and you can simplify the mixer by selecting tracks 2-17 in the track pane, then right-clicking and unchecking "show in mixer view" - at least that way you won't be "tripping over" your MIDI channels when adjusting your instrument levels.

    Provided that you haven't fallen into a catatonic trance somewhere in the middle of reading this post then you should now be well on the way to creating your masterpiece (to share in the Listening Room? ... ).

    I hope, in any event, that this helps illuminate your path through the tunnel a little more!

    All the best,

    Keith
    Hi Keith (and everyone!),

    Thanks for the great reply. I have read it a number of times and I'm certain I understand 99% of what's there there.

    I have been setting it up exactly as described by Peter in this thread http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...l=1#post657240

    As far as I can see it's good to go: One VST track, 16 MIDI tracks, 16 Audio tracks
    NOTE: I'm still not sure what these are for...I understand the basics of the routing (Tracks 2-17 Send to Track 1 which grabs the ARIA sounds and then routes them to tracks 18-33 which then output to the Master) but I don't know why we need MIDI and Audio tracks. I'm sure it will become clear some day....for now I just want to get it to work!

    The problem is that I still can't hear the different instruments when I set it up this way. I always hear whatever instrument is in slot 1 of ARIA and I'm not exactly sure why.

    My guess is that is has something to to with steps 7 and 8 from the setup that Peter described. I've tried following these steps but I don't know how.

    7. Set up the instruments you require in Aria, choosing suitable MIDI inputs channels and audio outputs for each (I assume your familiar with this already).
    I'm not familiar with that yet, and I'm guessing this might be the culprit


    8. Create MIDI items for each instrument on the MIDI track corresponding to its Midi channel the project area ... click on the track then Insert New MIDI item ... double click on the MIDI item to edit it.
    I'm not sure this is what I want to do since I want to enter notes from my controller and not in the editor with the mouse...maybe I needn't worry about this step?

    The weird thing is, when I arm Track 3 (the second MIDI track which should be triggering the sound in slot 2 of Aria) and hit record, I hear whatever instrument is in slot 1, but on playback I hear the intended instrument! (slot 2 in Aria)

    My goals are:

    1) Use one instance of Aria for all my sounds, rather than a new instance on each track.
    2) Be able to monitor the correct sound while I'm tracking, and not always hear whatever instrument is in Aria slot 1
    3) Be able to apply effects to the instruments separately (delay on the instrument in Aria slot 1, reverb on slot 2, etc)

    Like I said before I'm starting to think my problem lies with the outputs in Aria or possibly in the tracks themselves. The routing for every track contains all this 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 stuff and I just don't know what to do with that information. When I'm trying to set up these outputs, I'm never sure where I should be setting them up; Aria? The VST track? The MIDI tracks? The audio tracks?

    So you see, I'm still fairly mystified and haven't gotten it to work the way I think it should be working. Who knows, maybe the way I think it should be working is all messed to begin with.

    Thanks again to ALL of you for helping out a truly green audio engineer. Have I gotten in over my head? Maybe I need to go back and learn some more of the basics, but if you all wouldn't mind sticking with me and trying to figure this out (I'm determined!) I would really appreciate it.

    You're a patient bunch and I'm sorry to be such a nag! Thanks!!

    Best,
    Cal

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