• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Topic: drawing CC 1

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    drawing CC 1

    Hey, I know you guys are busy having fun with your new toy but check it out por favor; I added Sam Brass trombone section to a project and then re-recorded with the mod wheel.
    I got some places too hot so I went to (Sonar X1's) PRV to draw them in but don't see them in the CC 1 pane. I drew some values in but there is no difference in volume...am I missing something here?
    Thanks very much,
    Randy

  2. #2

    Re: drawing CC 1

    Quote Originally Posted by GRB53 View Post
    Hey, I know you guys are busy having fun with your new toy but check it out por favor; I added Sam Brass trombone section to a project and then re-recorded with the mod wheel.
    I got some places too hot so I went to (Sonar X1's) PRV to draw them in but don't see them in the CC 1 pane. I drew some values in but there is no difference in volume...am I missing something here?
    Thanks very much,
    Randy
    Several things - If it's literally "too hot," then you should bring the trombone MIDI track's volume down. The slider in Sonar controls the one in Aria --You often don't want those set at the full default volume. You should be able to use your full range of volume, 0 to 127 without it getting too hot, and that calls for adjustments on the MIDI track's volume.

    But you also need to be able to edit your CC1 and other data in the PRV.--I can't tell what's going on though, because you said you can't seem "them" (the data you recorded with your mod wheel?) in the CC1 pane. But then you said you drew some values in - How did you do that if you couldn't see any data in the CC1 pane?

    Since you didn't hear any volume change, it sounds like you didn't actually have a CC1 pane in view. You probably were drawing in the single pane that's in the default view, and that's Velocity--You probably edited some velocities. Click on the velocity pane's + mark to add a new pane. Then go to the menu and say you want that new pane to be for CC1.

    You need to edit CC1 and any continuous controller with the snap-to-grid OFF. Hold down CTRL as you draw, otherwise you'll only be inserting single events.

    Here's a picture taken for a different thread, but it shows volume data in the PRV:



    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: drawing CC 1

    1st of all thanks very much for taking the time to find that image Randy...it helps me a lot to see pictures.
    2nd, I should have said it's too hot in places...and I don't really want to freeze and draw a volume envelope yet.
    Maybe my image will tell you what I'm doing wrong....imagine the 1st two notes (the Eb and the Db) being much hotter than the 3rd note (the B) in the following image.
    BTW, this is the only instrument opened in the PRV so I don't see how I can be looking at something else (as buggy as X1 can be : )
    EDIT: I forgot to answer this question- I can't tell what's going on though, because you said you can't seem "them" (the data you recorded with your mod wheel?) in the CC1 pane. But then you said you drew some values in - How did you do that if you couldn't see any data in the CC1 pane?
    I can see it but I can't hear a difference when making changes (but most likely user error)
    [IMG][/IMG]

  4. #4

    Re: drawing CC 1

    Quote Originally Posted by GRB53 View Post
    1st of all thanks very much for taking the time to find that image Randy...it helps me a lot to see pictures.
    2nd, I should have said it's too hot in places...and I don't really want to freeze and draw a volume envelope yet.
    Maybe my image will tell you what I'm doing wrong....imagine the 1st two notes (the Eb and the Db) being much hotter than the 3rd note (the B) in the following image.http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo206/GRB53/CC1.jpg
    BTW, this is the only instrument opened in the PRV so I don't see how I can be looking at something else (as buggy as X1 can be : )
    Hi- I understood you meant it was just too hot in places. What I was trying to explain is that if an instrument is literally "too hot" (clipping) then you need to bring the MIDI track's volume down some. You shouldn't need to edit your volume data for that-because you want the full range of volume, all the way to a value of 127. Volume is relative - you want to make sure your highest volumes aren't too hot, but you don't want to not use your highest volumes - That's what the MIDI track volume slider is for.

    Looked at your picture - I can't imagine how the first two notes could be louder, they have lower CC1 values, even lower velocities. Something else is going on--I can't tell what.

    I didn't mean you were looking at the wrong instrument track--I was guessing that maybe you were drawing CC1 in the velocity pane in the PRV. Velocity is the only pane in the default view.

    Note - I can see you've drawn that CC1 with the snap-to on. Look at my screenshot - the curves of volume are continuous because I turned the snap off - that's the only way to get the smoothest volume curves.

    Another tip - When editing, re-drawing CC data, it's easier with those control handles off. You can sweep through easily with your cursor, not getting tripped up on those handles.

    Why those notes are louder--haven't a clue. There must be some other data in the project somewhere, like CC7 data bumping up the slider level --or something!

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: drawing CC 1

    Note - I can see you've drawn that CC1 with the snap-to on. Look at my screenshot - the curves of volume are continuous because I turned the snap off - that's the only way to get the smoothest volume curves.

    I used to know that but it's been a while since I've done this...thanks bud.

    Another tip - When editing, re-drawing CC data, it's easier with those control handles off. You can sweep through easily with your cursor, not getting tripped up on those handles.

    If by "control handles" you mean those little flag things at the top of the CC1 data, I don't know how to turn them off...please enlighten me sir.

  6. #6

    Re: drawing CC 1

    Quote Originally Posted by GRB53 View Post
    [I][COLOR=#333333]...

    Another tip - When editing, re-drawing CC data, it's easier with those control handles off. You can sweep through easily with your cursor, not getting tripped up on those handles.

    If by "control handles" you mean those little flag things at the top of the CC1 data, I don't know how to turn them off...please enlighten me sir.
    The PRV menu in the very upper left corner, next to the regular menu, you can change the display of various things, including the Control Handles. Turn those off there. They can be useful sometimes, but they make editing a pain. You Gotta have them on to edit CC64 though - you can't see Off events otherwise.

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: drawing CC 1

    So here's a question, I've always drawn straight lines via holding down shift, is the general consensus that it's more "real" if you use the mouse to draw the curves?

  8. #8

    Re: drawing CC 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane Grant View Post
    So here's a question, I've always drawn straight lines via holding down shift, is the general consensus that it's more "real" if you use the mouse to draw the curves?
    Hmmm, well the difference has to be pretty subtle in most cases. Once in awhile I'll do the straight line ramp thing on crescendos, but most of my data is recorded, and when I touch it up by hand, I usually use free-form drawing.

    Look at the screenshot I posted earlier - that's recorded volume data, not drawn. It has a lot of shape to it, and there are things you do with a mod wheel for really good expression which is difficult to emulate when drawn by hand. Usually when people draw by hand, from the examples I've seen, the results really don't look much like naturally played controllers.

    But - still, I'm sure the difference is too subtle to be noticed most of the time. I see no reason to do it all with straight lines though - might as well emulate the way the organically recorded data looks, and that's curved, hardly ever straight.

    Randy

  9. #9

    Re: drawing CC 1

    What they need then is a "curved line" tool I almost always use the straight line tool and it's never sounded noticeably unreal to me but I'm going to try to start throwing some curves in there for experimentation sake. My guess is that it won't make THAT much of a difference but who knows. I swear I have a tendency to take the fine details waaaay too far.

  10. #10

    Re: drawing CC 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane Grant View Post
    What they need then is a "curved line" tool I almost always use the straight line tool and it's never sounded noticeably unreal to me but I'm going to try to start throwing some curves in there for experimentation sake. My guess is that it won't make THAT much of a difference but who knows. I swear I have a tendency to take the fine details waaaay too far.
    Hiya, Dane - When it comes to audio envelopes in Sonar, there are a number of curves and curlicues available, but when it comes to MIDI CC data, free hand drawing really is the best. I think we All tend to get into fine details a lot, too much at times - but you know what happens--as soon as you let things slide, somebody comes along and busts ya, "HEY, where's your CC stuff, what's going on with your reverb?" etc--our fellow musician/composer listeners can help keep us honest.

    But most volume control change is over such a short period of time, straight line or curved, it really probably doesn't make an iota of difference.

    HOWEver--like I said earlier, I'm familiar with seeing hand drawn CC data, and it's usually not accurately reproducing what happens when someone plays a wind controller, or is using their mod wheel and expression pedal well.

    So if you have a chance to look at more recorded CC data, it could probably help you out at getting an even better feel for what's happening when you draw it in.

    You inspired me to open a project and randomly select a track to do a screen shot. This is a solo violin, the Garritan Stradivari (the discontinued solo Library). The CC11 data is volume, recorded with an expression pedal, and the CC1 data for that instrument controls the vibrato. This is a zoomed out shot so you can see a number of measures, more detail would be available in a zoomed in shot:



    Notice that the recorded data tends to be more "peaky" and wavering than we might tend to draw by hand.

    Whatever the case, and even though it probably won't make a big or any difference, I encourage you to draw free hand--it just feels better, if nothing else!

    Randy

Go Back to forum

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •