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Topic: Mod Wheel troubles

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  1. #1

    Mod Wheel troubles

    Hi all!

    I am not sure someone hasn't already posted this. If so, please let me know. Described issue is new, never happened before and, needless to say, puzzling.

    I am in Win7_x64 Pro\SONAR 8.53\Kontakt Player 4.0 with 8 instruments distributed across 8 MIDI channels. The Mod Wheel jumps to maximum even if I am not touchig it and/or any keys on my controller. Got Mod Wheel to minimum and it jumps back. Sme thing in any position. I turned the controller off. Same thing. I reloaded Kontakt empty and then all of the instruments. Reconfigured. Did this twice. Same thing each time. Then, I turned off each of the instruments sequentially. Each time I turned one off, I waited to see what happens. Yep, the Mod Wheel jumped to maximum. I then turned all of the instruments off and the phenomenon stopped. I have another library's instruments in a different player in the same project. This is NOT happening with that library. Anyone an opinion?

    Thanks for your input, S

  2. #2

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by sylva View Post
    ...The Mod Wheel jumps to maximum even if I am not touchig it...
    hmmm, sounds like there has to be some stray CC1 data in your project, Sylva. CC1 controls the Mod Wheel. Look in the Event List, and click the control to "show hidden" also. Every kind of MIDI event possible is listed there.

    If there's no stray CC1 data, something somewhere in your set up is sending Mod Wheel/CC1 out constantly and it sounds like it would be at the full 127 level.

    Check the data in Event List first. Then start testing things - Disconnect your keyboard and see what happens.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Oh, many thanks, Randy; prompt as usual

    Here's the new development. I looked at the MIDI tracks. All of them (Garritan's and the "other" library's) are getting bunches of MIDI data periodically (bunch period intervals are about 3-4 seconds) while the controller is ON but not played. This is when the wheel goes to max and it stays there. When I power the controller down, the signal stops. So it's probably coming from the controller. However, it has no effect on the other library because that has its MW at CC7. I deleted all of the CC1s from every track of the project. No cigar so far. Yea, I looked up the Evert Viewer. It shows all of the Garritan channels getting CC1s even if I don't touch the wheel and controller keys and the "other" library's tracks are getting CC7s. But they're not at all at 127 in the event list. They're at touch levels played at when I do something on the controller. What I don't know is how on earth the "other" library is not affected, while Garritan is wreaked havoc on.

    S.

  4. #4

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by sylva View Post
    Oh, many thanks, Randy; prompt as usual

    Here's the new development. I looked at the MIDI tracks. All of them (Garritan's and the "other" library's) are getting bunches of MIDI data periodically (bunch period intervals are about 3-4 seconds) while the controller is ON but not played. This is when the wheel goes to max and it stays there. When I power the controller down, the signal stops. So it's probably coming from the controller. However, it has no effect on the other library because that has its MW at CC7. I deleted all of the CC1s from every track of the project. No cigar so far. Yea, I looked up the Evert Viewer. It shows all of the Garritan channels getting CC1s even if I don't touch the wheel and controller keys and the "other" library's tracks are getting CC7s. But they're not at all at 127 in the event list. They're at touch levels played at when I do something on the controller. What I don't know is how on earth the "other" library is not affected, while Garritan is wreaked havoc on.

    S.
    What a drag--something's wonky with your controller, Sylva. It's spitting out MIDI data when it shouldn't. You need to have a repair guy check it out and fix it up if possible.

    The reason the "other library" isn't effected is because Garritan Libraries are unique in the way CC1 is used for volume control. That's not standard MIDI spec.

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    The reason the "other library" isn't effected is because Garritan Libraries are unique in the way CC1 is used for volume control. That's not standard MIDI spec.

    Randy
    Yup, standard MIDI spec is for the "mod" wheel to control modulation. If you hear a warble in the sound, that usually because the instrument is responding to it in a traditional sense.

    Unfortunate about the hardware failure there. Sometimes it can be fixed. In the interim, check your midi controller manual. You might be able to map the modwheel to translate something other than CC1 so at least it won't foul your sequencer work. (MIDI-OX will also do the necessary filtering).

  6. #6

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Thank you, guys.

    I did some checking. I moved the USB cable to another jack. The periodic CC1s have stopped coming and I've been trouble free almost the whole day. I'm saying almost, because after I got out of SONAR to take a break, I got back in and, lo and behold, the CC1s started out again. I thought that my controller is misbehaving, but moving to another computer doesn't exhibit the same trouble. I can work without a problem. It might come down to reinstalling everything, a very BIG headake, but hey, that's life, though prior to it I'll try your suggestion to reassign the mod wheel to another CC. Yea, I know that CC1 is non standard, the standard being CC7. Somewhere in the Garritan manual it's stated that CC7 is disabled by default, but that it can be re-instated via Kontakt Player's Options. I've never had to do it, but I'll try.

    Thanks again, S.

  7. #7

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    cc#7 is channel volume NOT expression. The MMA recommends that it should be used to set the relative balance between instruments.
    cc#7, as far as I'm aware, doesn't change the envelope of the sound as do any of cc#1, cc#2 and cc#11.

    Please remember too that cc#11 (expression) and cc#2 (if I recall correctly), breath controller, also affect the mod wheel in ARIA. All three can be used to effect expression in GPO.

    I personally NEVER use cc#1 for expression just because of its use as a vibrato controller by most other MIDI sound modules. I remap my controller mod wheel to cc#11.

    Just a thought! I could be wrong though.
    SXJohn.

  8. #8

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by SysExJohn View Post
    cc#7 is channel volume NOT expression. The MMA recommends that it should be used to set the relative balance between instruments.
    cc#7, as far as I'm aware, doesn't change the envelope of the sound as do any of cc#1, cc#2 and cc#11.

    Please remember too that cc#11 (expression) and cc#2 (if I recall correctly), breath controller, also affect the mod wheel in ARIA. All three can be used to effect expression in GPO.

    I personally NEVER use cc#1 for expression just because of its use as a vibrato controller by most other MIDI sound modules. I remap my controller mod wheel to cc#11.

    Just a thought! I could be wrong though.
    SXJohn.
    Hi, John - Thanks for helping Sylva out with some info.

    Spot on - CC7 is primarily for setting the relative balance between instruments. It doesn't manipulate the samples in soft synths at all, it just sets the potential volume for each instrument. CC7 controls the volume faders in ARIA, and you use those to get the basic balance set between instruments.

    And that's right that CC11 and CC2 are alternates to CC1 for volume control in ARIA. Note that Sylva isn't using ARIA, but the Kontakt Player, the sample engine host for the previous version of GPO. CC11 or CC2 could probably be used in that set up--it's just been so long that I'm not sure.

    BUT one needs to choose which instrument volume control to use. All three are "expressive" volume controls, but if you have more than one being triggered,you'll get a mess of contradictory data that causes the "jittering" sound people report sometimes - that's an instrument jumping up and down wildly in volume, because both CC1 and CC11 managed to get into the MIDI track.

    For quite an extended period, Garritan Libraries were the only instruments I used, and so I always used the standard-approved CC1. Later when I started using other soft synths in conjunction with Garritan, it still wasn't really a problem to keep using CC1 on the GPO tracks for volume - It's only if you're layering both Garritan and other synths in the same track that it becomes an issue. Garritan will respond with volume change to CC1, the other more standard MIDI synth will respond with vibrato to CC1.

    HOWEVer--for quite awhile now, I've been using only CC11 for playing instruments. It's universally used, has been in the MIDI spec as "Expression" since forever. Some synths won't respond to it, but generally, CC11 can be used for volume.

    It was my new keyboard (a year old now) that got me on to using CC11. The keyboard, Cakewalk/Roland A-800 Pro, uses a spring action mod stick instead of a standard mod wheel. In its default position, it's sending out zero data. Push the stick up, and that triggers CC1. Problem with Garritan projects is that the only way to keep the volume up on a track is to not let go of the spring action stick - SO, I'm using the CC11 pedal jack on the keyboard. I have an M-Audio EX-P pedal plugged into the jack, and it works great - When I go "wild" I can record CC11 volume, mod wheel and even pitch bend (controlled on the same stick--push it left or right)--all at the same time.

    ----But, meanwhile - Sylva - keep us posted on this stray data issue. It's very mystifying now that you're saying everything works fine on a different computer from your regular one. What could be going wrong?!

    Randy

  9. #9

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Randy: "----But, meanwhile - Sylva - keep us posted on this stray data issue. It's very mystifying now that you're saying everything works fine on a different computer from your regular one. What could be going wrong?!"

    Weeeeell... It does and it doesn't. It does when it wants to. HOWEVER: It works to perfection in Kontakt Player 2, 3 & 4 when it's floating (used by itself, no DAW) which makes me think about some problem between Win7 and Kontakt. I almost thought that my Axiom61 is finished, but now I have strong second thoughts.

    S.

  10. #10

    Re: Mod Wheel troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by sylva View Post
    ... It works to perfection in Kontakt Player 2, 3 & 4 when it's floating (used by itself, no DAW) which makes me think about some problem between Win7 and Kontakt...
    I'm using W7, and still use KP2 and KP4 for playing the Garritan Strad and Gofriller Cello - I'm not having the problems you're talking about.

    Randy

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