Recommended Midi Controller

[gracenote]

WOW! Thank you so much for the warm welcome and for taking the time to respond to my questions. I'm very thankful and very happy to be a new member of the NorthernSounds.com discussion forum.

After reading your responses, thinking about them, and doing some extra research, and doing some more thinking, and comparing different products and prices, I ordered... (drum roll please) ... the Roland A-800PRO.

I'm excited. Tomorrow, I should have Cubase and and Personal Orchestra in my hands, so I'll be using my Casio to play around with it while I wait for my Roland.

As GRM stated, I found that the roland does indeed have "a lot of bang for the buck." However, the big concern I had for the roland was the "joystick." But... the good outweighed the "bad"... which isn't really bad, for me. I'm just accustomed to the wheels on my keyboard, but I rarely used them in the past, I don't think I'll have a problem getting used to the "joystick."

I can't wait! I'm going to start reading "Principles of Orchestration." (If anyone has any recommended resources that would be beneficial to a newbie, don't hesitate to send them my way... or course, I'll definitely be sifting through this forum!)

Thank you Mr. Randy for the recommending the Roland A-800 PRO (and for your helpfully informative response!) It seems I had overlooked the roland in my previous research, I'm very glad you brought it to my attention.

Thanks again everyone! I'm thankful for all your time and patience with a newcomer. This has been very helpful!

- gracenote

[SysExJohn]

May I sincerely wish you joy with your acquisition.

May I also make a suggestion?
When you get the keyboard try playing sustain patches and use an expression pedal, not the joystick, to control cc#1 or 2 or 11 as you choose. You may find it lacks the finesse you want. It does with me.

I have a Roland keyboard, and I wanted to use the part of the joystick equivalent to the modulation wheel to control expression. The only way I could get it to give me the control I wanted was to make the following modification.



This is a picture of the rear of the joystick. See the spring in the middle? Carefully unclip it and store it somewhere safe. Then check to see if the joystick moves freely, back and forth, in the vertical direction.
I found I had to re-route and bend the cables slightly, be careful, in order to achieve this.

Put the top and bottom halves of the shall back together and make sure the vertical travel is still okay.
It's possible that those modified cables may come in contact with the lower half of the shell.
If all is good put back the screws but don't overtighten them.

However, having said and done that, I still don't like it, it has such a short travel.
That's why I'm looking to replace it. Everything else with the keyboard, though, is fine.

I put the spring back temporarily just to show what I did.

In my case the back of the keyboard was removed by unscrewing ONLY the screws around the outside.
The inner screws hold the various circuit boards in place. Don't undo those.
A bit of careful experimentation, and some years building aircraft in the aircraft industry, revealed what was necessary.

There you go too, Randy, I know you're not happy with that silly joystick either!

All the best,
SXJohn.

[rbowser-]

...After reading your responses, thinking about them, and doing some extra research, and doing some more thinking, and comparing different products and prices, I ordered... (drum roll please) ... the Roland A-800PRO...

Congratulations, gracenote! This is a solid machine you've chosen, I think you'll have a great time with it. As is often the case with musical equipment, the owner's manual isn't the most helpful, but you'll still get the basic info from it that you'll need. There's a pre-set map especially for Cubase to get you up and running.

The special map I did for ARIA is really helpful. Knobs on the keyboard are set up to control MIDI controllers like CC21, 22, 23, 17, etc - It's a more organic way to work, turning those knobs and recording that kind of data in real time rather than drawing it in. Works great!

IMPORTANT--Hope you see this: This was explained earlier on the thread, but there's a lot of info here, and I can't be sure you caught it. You DO need to get an Expression pedal for the keyboard. It's the only way you'll have a hassle-free way of working with GPO.

To re-cap that info--here's what you need to understand.

--Volume control of most Garritan Instruments is done either with CC1 (Mod Wheel defaults to that), CC11 (Expression pedal), or CC2 (Wind controller).

--Those controllers have to be able to be continuously recorded, performed, using the full range available. Usually whichever kind of control you're using will be around the 1/2 way mark, going up and down from there as per the needs of what you're playing.

--This Roland keyboard has a Pitch Bend/Modulation stick which has a spring action. That means it always move back to Off when you're not using it. There's a tension, caused by the spring, which gives slight resistance to your moves with it. You push it sideways for pitch bend, then it moves back to zero where you want and need it most of the time. Same for modulation, or whatever you decide to program the up action for.

--Having a spring loaded control like that doesn't work for volume work. You would have to keep your hand constantly on the control, pushing it to about the 1/2 way mark all through your recording--That's impractical.

--That's why you must get an Expression pedal and use it to control volume with GPO. When I ordered the A-Pro from Sweetwater, I also ordered the M-Audio EX-P pedal and it works perfectly. It was half the price of a Roland model--there's no need to pay as much as Roland charges for their pedal. As my helpful Sweetwater rep told me, the pedals are really the same--Roland just charges more.

READ ON - More info on this below in my reply to SysExJohn

...May I also make a suggestion?
When you get the keyboard try playing sustain patches and use an expression pedal, not the joystick, to control cc#1 or 2 or 11 as you choose...(then - instructions for modifying the control stick)

There you go too, Randy, I know you're not happy with that silly joystick either!

All the best,
SXJohn.

The first part is right on - Yes, an Expression pedal is mandatory for getting the A-Pro to work smoothly with GPO.

But--totally wrong on the second part, John. You must have missed my post #10 above. I am Totally happy with the control stick, and don't think it's silly at all. And, though I understand you're happier now that the spring has been disabled on your stick,--I have no desire to do that.

To re-cap-- Before I bought the A-Pro I wasn't thrilled with the fact that it has a stick for two controls instead of two wheels. I anticipated the problem of not being able to control volume that way, and that's why I ordered the Expression pedal.

It didn't take me long to not only adapt to the control stick, but to really like it. Having the spring action is PERFECT for doing pitch bend, that's why the tradtional keyboard wheel is spring action just like this. AND it's perfect for recording things like vibrato Modulation and AfterTouch, because those are controls you want just periodically. It's very helpful to have the control move back to zero, instead of accidentally staying at some low level, which can happen on the traditional mod wheel which is freewheeling.

So--Gracenote - If you haven't ordered an Expression pedal, you do need to do that, or buy one at a local music store. Then you'll be truly all set.

Randy

[Haydn]

I've always had a hard time doing CC1 with my expression pedal. Instead of using the Roland joystick on my keyboard, I program one of the sliders for CC1. I always program on the far right slider. I also use a Korg NanoKontrol which sits on top of my 88-key weighted controller which also has CC1 on the far right slider.

Jim

[rbowser-]

I've always had a hard time doing CC1 with my expression pedal. Instead of using the Roland joystick on my keyboard, I program one of the sliders for CC1. I always program on the far right slider. I also use a Korg NanoKontrol which sits on top of my 88-key weighted controller which also has CC1 on the far right slider.

Jim

Excellent alternative, Jim.

Gracenote, you could try Jim's suggestion first before buying a pedal. That could work just fine for you, and you'd save some money!

Randy

[gracenote]

SysExJohn,

Thank you for the pointers and for the picture, that is quite helpful as I was already talking to my dad about finding a way to remove the spring if I don't like it.


Mr. Randy,

Yes sir, we did order the expression pedal - the same one you mentioned, the M Audio EX-P. However, I am grateful that you took the time to stress the importance of getting one. And thank you for the advice, I really can't wait to get started! Today, UPS delivered Cubase 6 and Garritan Personal Orchestra 4! Early next week, Lord willing, I'll have the Roland and expression pedal in my grasp - then the fun work will be begin!


Thank you Haydn! I'll keep that in mind if I don't like using the expression pedal for volume control.


God bless,
An excited gracenote

[SysExJohn]

Hi Randy,

Yes, I did miss your post #10. I've rectified that.
My feelings, like Haydn, is that an expression pedal doesn't provide quite the same sensitivity as a modulation wheel.
The joystick has limited travel.
My left hand works better than my right foot!
I shelled out the extra for the Roland EV-5, where the sensitivity is adjustable.

I have both faders and pots on my keyboard, but they are positioned more for right hand use, than left.
Difficult to play right handed and adjust these simultaneously. The leftmost pot is usable but has a centre point detent.

So, at least for me, the acquisition of a "proper MIDI control keyboard" (my words) is next on the list.
The key question for me is hammer action or organ type.
(I'd like to acquire better pianistic skills, but hammer action is not best for sustaining instruments.)
A dilemma.

It's still only my 2d worth.
SXJohn.

P.S. Sorry, for those who may think I'm crazy talking about "pots".
My training was as an electronics engineer. Pot = potentiometer.
Normal people call them knobs!
I've never claimed to be normal. Nuts? Closer to the mark.

[fastlane]

Hey now there, hold on, Phil - Something's definitely wrong here.

For a controller to work on one armed MIDI track at a time is normal since you usually want to be recording on just one track at a time. But your keyboard, the CME UF60, is able to have all 9 faders and the other controls working during a mix. The record buttons should work, and you should be able to do as much as you want during a pass through in a project.

You do have to program these controller keyboards to function with your software - you can't just plug them in and have everything immediately functioning. I bought the Roland A-Pro keyboard mentioned on this thread (at least $100 less than the CME, by the way) because I use Roland's Sonar and wanted a product I felt sure would function with my software, and it does. But I still had to spend a chunk of time to get it working the way I wanted.

There have to be things you're missing in your keyboard's literature, Phil - What you describe is not the way a controller functions. I looked the specs up on the CME- you have a fine keyboard--Something is wrong or incomplete in your set up.

Randy

I buckled down and actually made a real attempt to get my UF6(not 60) to work with Metro. The UF6 literature is pretty skimpy about controlling a DAW. They list some numbers and then say it may not work.

]

They have never updated a driver for it or the UF 60 since 2005. Not a good sign. They state in the literature to use the MIDI out if the USB doesn't work. Great product + poor support = not so good user experience.

Metro has a Remote Control window where you set this sort of thing up but no luck so far. It doesn't show the UF6 as a device, just the MIDI to USB ports A&B.

I posted about this on the Metro forum with some picts so I'm still hoping for a break through.

The good news is that I found out that Metro has a drag bar tool that was right in front of my face that allows you to play in free time and then pull the bars around to at least group your notes into the correct measure.


Phil

[Seq]

Just wanted to add that if you don't have a bundle of money sitting around, you could always get a secondary controller like an Oxygen 8 or something (even a Nano Key) and use that for the key switches while using your other keyboard for the note input. Part of it depends on what you already have at hand and what your budget is.

[rbowser-]

Just wanted to add that if you don't have a bundle of money sitting around, you could always get a secondary controller like an Oxygen 8 or something (even a Nano Key) and use that for the key switches while using your other keyboard for the note input. Part of it depends on what you already have at hand and what your budget is.

That's very good advice also - Note that the OP has already ordered the Roland A-800 Pro, so is well set with both a keyboard and the control surface she was hoping for.

Randy