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Topic: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

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  1. #1

    Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    Can anybody give me a suggestion how to do this.

    Piano - both hands play two voices. The pinky of the right hand holds the note on voice 1 while the other fingers play around on voice2. The same for the left hand where the thumb holds a note on voice 1 and the others crawl around on voice 2. You know in Bach's Preludes and Fugues this happens all the time.

    Now it is not Bach, but Raymond. Those held notes don't sustain, the sound stops at the next note on voice 2, while I really want that sustaining note until the end of ... whatever.

    Clear?

    Raymond

  2. #2

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond62 View Post
    Can anybody give me a suggestion how to do this.

    Piano - both hands play two voices. The pinky of the right hand holds the note on voice 1 while the other fingers play around on voice2. The same for the left hand where the thumb holds a note on voice 1 and the others crawl around on voice 2. You know in Bach's Preludes and Fugues this happens all the time.

    Now it is not Bach, but Raymond. Those held notes don't sustain, the sound stops at the next note on voice 2, while I really want that sustaining note until the end of ... whatever.

    Clear?

    Raymond
    I guess you must be in Finale for this work, Raymond? Because what you're describing is super easy to do in Sonar. If you didn't just play the part that way, you could hand edit the held note by just making it longer than the others in the PRV.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    I found the multiple voices aspect of finale...eh...troublesome.

    But perhaps I wasn't utilising it correctly.

    I did a test in my version (2011) and found it is holding the long note on voice 1, and letting voice 2 play.Now, naturally, if you hold the semi-breve on middle C (voice 1) and the next note is middle C (quaver on voice 2) - yep it will cut out. Why? Well naturally it's impossible to sustain a held note with your thumb when that note is played again in the phrase. And I've seen notation like this a lot. The sustain pedal is normally the answer - but it depends on the nature of the melody. Also, sometimes these long sustained notes are only there to maintain notational voice accuracy (filling up the beat requirements of a bar) so that the player knows that voice 1 is being 'held' - even when it must be interrupted with another voice hitting on the same note in the bar at some point. It's a bit tricky at times to understand the way some pieces are notated. Other times rests are used - still get's messy.
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  4. #4

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....P rv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Pr v....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv ....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv. ...Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv.. ..Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv... .Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv.... Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....P rv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Pr v....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv ....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv. ...Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....

  5. #5

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    Quote Originally Posted by DPDAN View Post
    Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....P rv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Pr v....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv ....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv. ...Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv.. ..Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv... .Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv.... Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....P rv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Pr v....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv ....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv. ...Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....Prv....
    hehehe---I hear ya, Dan. The crazy things our notation friends go through sometimes. 8-)

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    it's just sad

  7. #7

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    We spend so much time looking at the notes that our EARS go to sleep......LOL

    Jack
    Jack Cannon--MacBook Pro (2015, 13") GPO4/5, JABB3, Auth. STEINWAY, YAMAHA CFX, Gofriller CELLO, Stradivari VIOLIN, COMB2, WORLD, HARPS, PIPE ORGANS, FINALE 2014.5, Mac Pro 2.66 GHz CPU, 8 GB RAM, DP 9.5, MOTU Traveler, MOTU Micro Express, MacBook Pro (2012, 13") 2.2 Ghz CPU, 8 GB RAM.

  8. #8

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    they're jokes, but still, the do come across as digs at those who use notation software.

    Raymond, I don't understand what you mean about notes not holding.

    if you are using Finale and have a half note in layer 1, no notes in layer 2 (or 3 or 4) will affect how long that layer 1 note sustains, UNLESS (as someone else mentioned) the same note is struck.

    The reason the same note striking will cut another note short is simple: it's just MIDI information, note on/note off. Regardless of how long your layer 1 note is, if another layer, on the same channel, plays the same note, it WILL send a new note on/note off signal.

    But please explain what exactly you mean about notes not sustaining.
    I am sure I can help you with that.

  9. #9

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    Raymond,

    This is "normal behaviour" in all notation programs I've come across.

    If we, for the sake of example, have a semi-breve on the top voice, and a quaver on the same note of the lower voice at the beginning of a measure, then in two tracks (assigned to the same MIDI channel) generated by the program, we get two MIDI note on messages being generated at the start of the measure, followed by a note off message being generated by the lower voice at the end of the quaver. The note off message stops the note, both upper and lower voices because they are on the same MIDI channel.
    It's likely that a second note off will be generated at the end of the semi-breve in the first voice at the end of the measure.

    It's got absolutely nothing to do with working in PRV!

    For the sake of the MIDI file, if we want to use just one MIDI channel, the quaver has to go. We hang on to the semi-breve.

    Or, if you have MIDI channels to spare, assign the piano voices across however many channels you need, with copies of the piano instrument in the slots in Aria. Even this isn't totally satisfactory though, as one gets doubling of the note in question.

    I'm afraid that one has to treat notation and MIDI files as two separate entities. Notation is for players and will be appropriately interpreted. If you're notating for playback, you have to do the same, and not play, or insert, the shorter intervening notes. Put in a hidden rest instead.

    Just my 2d as usual!
    Any help?
    SXJohn.

  10. #10

    Re: Mutiple voices in the piano part - help!

    Quote Originally Posted by SysExJohn View Post
    Raymond,
    This is "normal behaviour" in all notation programs I've come across.
    ....................Any help?
    Yes!!! I wasn't sure, but you kicked over the demarcation line...... the solution is: Now I have 3 pianos.

    Top voice for right hand - soprano clef
    Normal two staves - those spare fingers on both hands
    Botton voice for left hand - bass clef

    .. and now I can use the pedal for those separate tracks......

    see picture (it is Overture). Setting the velocity very careful is obligatory.



    Raymond

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