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Topic: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

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  1. #1

    Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Hi guys. Recently, I found this on the tube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5tc57Gmfjw

    Now... There are a zillion versions of Oblivion, all beautiful. This one is among my favourites. Very good recording, and at least 3 of the four soloist are pretty amazing (I mean... there is Kremer in there... ), as the bassist plays some sort of an anonymous part.
    The idea was to render a base and play on it with my violin. No score, no midi file... I just had to rewrite the whole thing (I notated everything directly in Sonar), with heavy tweaks. Out the bass, in a cello, and the whole central part is scored for small orchestra, strings + solo winds. Basically... it is a completely different piece.
    As it is, Oblivion lost all of its beauty and doesn't even sound like a tango anymore.

    This is an all Garritan. Piano is from Jabb, Bandoneon from World, string sections from Gpo, Bassoon and Oboe again from Gpo and Flute and Clarinet from Jabb. The only "cheat" is the solo cello, which is cello 1 from Gpo but is not playing in Aria, it is repatched in Independence which is also supplying the convolution reverb.
    Solo violin is playing live.... the famous Sec's out of tune violin.

    http://www.box.com/s/56aef06916ae6cd2e5c5

    Fabrizio

    EDIT 3/11/2012. Recorded new violin part, this time with my silent violin.

  2. #2
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    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Hi Fabrizio,,
    Most music is written for some purpose. Marches to encourage Military valor; same for anthems of varied purpose.
    Dance music has inspired music since before written music existed.
    Waltzes reflect the various steps in 3; Cha-chas always reflect one, two, chachacha; etc.
    All dance music should reflect the movement of the dance.
    I think you were thinking the Tango rhythm in your head so clearly that you hear it without it being present.
    Take the rhythm & incorporate it in this piece. Each instrument can pass it around .
    Gary

  3. #3

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Quote Originally Posted by sec2 View Post
    ...
    As it is, Oblivion lost all of its beauty and doesn't even sound like a tango anymore.

    ...cello 1 from Gpo but is not playing in Aria, it is repatched in Independence which is also supplying the convolution reverb.
    Solo violin is playing live.... the famous Sec's out of tune violin.

    Fabrizio
    Well now - This is certainly moody, and with some nicely turned passages. You said it first - that it doesn't sound like a tango anymore, but it's not as if it's "lost all of it's beauty," you're being too harsh on yourself.

    The main element that the You Tube video has which keeps it a Tango is the bass, which, intricate as it is, is still keeping the Tango rhythm for us to recognize.

    --How did you manage to repatch the cello into Independence--?--- I didn't know that was possible.

    --Yes,--the famous out of tune violin---yes, well, you said it first.

    Randy

  4. #4

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Well, gary, to tell you the whole truth, there was not much tango in my head while rearranging this. Guess it shows.
    Oblivion has such a wonderful melody that really inspires you to pull anything you want out of it. I remember an old version by Al Di Meola with a bucketload of guitars all played by himself. Something between funky/fusion.... whatever. Not tango, definitely.
    From bar 1, I chose a different path and intentionally followed it. Unconventional, but personal interpretation. I wanted the music to be more flowing and less rythmic, the harmony thicker and more sophisticated. And it is, actually, expecially the first two melodic sections. There' s a lot of tension in the shape of several intentionally thrown in tritone chords and also the tension peaks are different from Kremer's version. Also, the middle orchestral section sports a secondary melody for stressed "ensemble feel", so it is thicker, too.
    The final reprise doesn't convince me too much as, for a change, I decided to start it by mocking the piano part of the source version, and this dragged along the cello and harmony is poorer, not clearly defined up to the borders of tonal instability. Not exactly what I was aiming for.... did not feel like rewriting it, though; irrelevant to explain why.
    Randy....(while writing I am listening to your Sawyer - cemetery scene, will comment later on)... mmm... agree and don't agree on that bass. Basses always stress and build rythm, but that particular one doubles 90% of the time one of the voices of the piano. Doesn't add to the rythm, it just stresses it, or at least "kind of" because even in there rythm is very smooth, classy... all about that piece is classy: beautiful recording and deep emotions due to all of those pp and the wide range of Kremer's hat tricks in the shape of harmonics, tremolos "sul ponticello"....

    Sure you can repatch anything you want, everywhere. Independence is a bit tough as it only imports wav files, so you need to convert into wav. From there on, doing the patch is a matter of a few minutes. How to convert in wav? Not saying "in the open", don't want to be the one giving bad examples. Why import in Independence? Two main reasons:
    free the sound from all eq and filtering used by the Aria patches (you can notice the cello breathes much wider here in Indy) and because I needed a permanent slow attack curve otherwise it would have taken much longer to program the part manually drawing a continuous 5 minutes cc1. I was tempted to do the same for the bandoneon and built the patch... but then I kept using the Aria version because I would have had to draw the envelope anyway, as cello plays always with the same attack, while the bandoneon has an ever changing attack shape, from instantaneous to veeeeeery slow.
    An attack knob (as well as decay, release and so on) can be programmed in Aria, too, quite easily; which is adding to the GUI a knob controlling the attack curve. Still, I prefer Independence's, as knobs in Aria work by percentages, AHDSR in Indy shows everything in milliseconds, plus feels more accurate, plus the free envelopes makes you draw any kind of shape you desire, plus you have all envelopes in one place instead of having several separated knobs. .
    Small suggestion to Garritan's programmers: I understand the whole cc1 philosophy and the fact that cc1 is poorly compatible with a full attack envelope controller (that in its turn fights with auto-legato, too).... but at least on the notation version of the instruments you could define an attack knob (the way you implemented in IO, if I understood correctly). Attack curve is such an important parameter.... the lack of it forces us "notators" to manually draw attack curves which is very time consuming and.... PLAIN BORING, really.

  5. #5

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Hi, Fab -
    Quote Originally Posted by sec2 View Post
    ...Sure you can repatch anything you want, everywhere. Independence is a bit tough as it only imports wav files, so you need to convert into wav...
    Ah, I see. I understood that Independence uses wavs, so conversion of the Garritan "audio" files would be needed. I thought you meant you were somehow opening up the cello directly in Independence without retro-engineering/hacking into the GPO data. Now I get it - thanks for the explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by sec2 View Post
    ...I needed a permanent slow attack curve otherwise it would have taken much longer to program the part manually drawing a continuous 5 minutes cc1...
    cello plays always with the same attack...
    An attack knob (as well as decay, release and so on) can be programmed in Aria, too, quite easily; which is adding to the GUI a knob controlling the attack curve....Attack curve is such an important parameter.... the lack of it forces us "notators" to manually draw attack curves which is very time consuming and.... PLAIN BORING, really.
    Yes, DAW software users with a keyboard certainly have a huge advantage in areas like this. To expressively perform an instrument's ebb and flow of volume with CC1 or 11 data is so easily done, and doing that is anything but boring. In fact it's one of the joys of playing an instrument in real time.

    But you do know that velocity is what controls the Attack in Garritan, not CC1. I think you're saying you wanted an even slower attack than the one you get with a Velocity level of 0 or 1 - and you even say you wanted the cello to always have the same attack - that would be done in changing the attack parameter in the SFZ file. You can adjust an SFZ parameter like that on a per project if you want. I did that recently with an instrument that I needed to have a consistently faster attack.

    --um--but I don't know why you said a cello is always played with the same slow attack. Not the cellos I know! -- Maybe you meant that in this particular piece you wanted, for some reason, for the attack to always be extremely slow.

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Hi, Fab -

    Ah, I see. I understood that Independence uses wavs, so conversion of the Garritan "audio" files would be needed. I thought you meant you were somehow opening up the cello directly in Independence without retro-engineering/hacking into the GPO data. Now I get it - thanks for the explanation.

    Yes, DAW software users with a keyboard certainly have a huge advantage in areas like this. To expressively perform an instrument's ebb and flow of volume with CC1 or 11 data is so easily done, and doing that is anything but boring. In fact it's one of the joys of playing an instrument in real time.

    But you do know that velocity is what controls the Attack in Garritan, not CC1. I think you're saying you wanted an even slower attack than the one you get with a Velocity level of 0 or 1 - and you even say you wanted the cello to always have the same attack - that would be done in changing the attack parameter in the SFZ file. You can adjust an SFZ parameter like that on a per project if you want. I did that recently with an instrument that I needed to have a consistently faster attack.

    --um--but I don't know why you said a cello is always played with the same slow attack. Not the cellos I know! -- Maybe you meant that in this particular piece you wanted, for some reason, for the attack to always be extremely slow.

    Randy
    Well.. I am a DAW user too Only, I apply the notated approach. To tell you the truth I am a pretty recent midi/vst user and I am still trying to find my own way with all this stuff. You know I play the piano and have a midi keyboard; but I want to force myself to work with a score for educational purposes. I would have chosen a notation program instead of a DAW, but I've tried demos of both Sibelius and Finale and think they are both VERY weak in the rendering realm. Plus, I sort of grown used to Sonar's staff view. Anyway, long story with a lot of things to say and I do not want to bore you.
    I know that attack is controlled via velocity with Garritan instruments. Only, as you correctly assume, the difference between top and bottom range is not very wide, therefore you've got limited expressive possibilities and it is better to use cc1 for a greater control.
    With my approach I can use an attack curve of even 10 seconds, if I feel I need to. As already told, one can do the same in Aria. I've "hacked" a few GPO patches in Aria and customized the behaviour of the relevant instruments. You make Aria draw new knobs on the GUI and link them to specific parameters. Only, importing in Independence is easier and quicker, and gives you access to a whole lot of possibilities.

    I did not express myself correctly with concern to the attack curve of that cello. I might not be (yet) a good string player, but I know that every note has got a different attack. I wanted to say that it was ok, for that cello, to have a consistent slow attack, and it was not so necessary to draw a specific attack for every note and therefore make the relevant investment in terms of time to draw the curves. On the other hand, I needed very specific attack curves for several notes from the bandoneon. Hear again its very first note of the piece....
    In general, slow attack is very much a key factor in strings' expressivity in slow, flowing, pieces (and I can also tell you that it is not a joke to perform correctly....), but it really depends on the kind of music you are handling. Sometimes you need slow attack, sometimes super quick, sometimes harsh and so on.
    Going back to that cello, it is not even true that it is playing with constant attack curve. The way I programmed that patch, attack curve is also velocity dependent (and I adjusted velocities note by note in Sonar's PRV), plus there is also a random generator linked to it so that the attack curve always keeps changing within a specified range. There is also a random start delay, a random sample start skip time and other goodies. Again, you can program the same things in Aria, too.

    Fab

  7. #7
    Senior Member fastlane's Avatar
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    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Fabrizio,

    This was an interesting project. You sort of stripped the aggressive interaction between the dancers from the music. It makes it a pretty melancholy piece and takes it to a different place.

    I probably like it better as a tango because I'm more comfortable with that. I was thinking maybe one could dance for a while and then sulk a bit and then return to the dance and so on.

    Thanks for posting this.



    Phil

  8. #8

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Thank you for listening, Phil.

    I do agree with you. I mean, I liked turning the piece upside down, it has been very interesting and educational and I do like my version, but I still continue to appreciate it more as a Tango.

  9. #9

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Hey Fab! For one thing, I agree that this is a beautiful piece. I listened to the original youtube play that you selected. Just a marvelous sound. Your rendition of this is nice but it seems to lack the spirit of the original. I do like your version though. I can understood how your working on this piece was a good experience and educational.
    Thanks for posting this and directing me to an original presentation also. I have never heard of this and it was just a great listen. Jay

  10. #10

    Re: Tango! .... Tango??? Well, kind of....

    Quote Originally Posted by jaynkate01 View Post
    Hey Fab! For one thing, I agree that this is a beautiful piece. I listened to the original youtube play that you selected. Just a marvelous sound. Your rendition of this is nice but it seems to lack the spirit of the original. I do like your version though. I can understood how your working on this piece was a good experience and educational.
    Thanks for posting this and directing me to an original presentation also. I have never heard of this and it was just a great listen. Jay

    Jay... their version has got Kremer on the violin. Mine has ME! He is making those small couple of plates of wood literally sing and cry, I am trying very hard just to play in tune. Without succeeding
    That Oblivion is so lavish, I really like Kremer.

    Some time ago I found a version from him of Bach's Chaconne from the 1004, on Youtube. With these big masterpieces, among the all-time foundations of music, everyone would just say that "the one" has got to be Jascha Heifetz's version.
    Well... compare yourself, anyone interested:

    Heifetz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhCdyQ_8Wg

    Kremer
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBJPV...eature=related

    I do not have the required education and knowledge to even think of judging these two, but I am not so sure that Heifetz's is the best one.

    Hey, thank you for listening!

    Fabry

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