• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Topic: Why the mod wheel?

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Why the mod wheel?

    I am sure this has been asked many times before. It is possible that I read a thread about it before, and forgot about it. So, please forgive me for asking this again. It is a very basic fundamental question about GPO though, so perhaps deserves bringing up again.

    From the very beginning GPO was set up to have the mod wheel (cc1) control volume, rather than volume (cc7) or expression (cc11). What is the reason for that, rather than leaving that parameter to be controlled by the expression pedal as CC11? Handling that with the foot frees up the mod wheel for its original function, vibrato, and also frees up both hands for playing the keyboard two-handed, while controlling volume (expression) with the foot.

    Why have the mod wheel control volume?

    Thanks in advance for your reply.

  2. #2

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    As I recall it, the mod wheel was chosen as it was the most common controller available to most keyboard users. Making the main expression controller code something else would have meant users would have had to have/buy an additional controller to use GPO out of the box (or be locked into midi-controller editing), so possibly limiting its marketability. Also, MW controller is/had been established in other libraries (SAM, VSL) probably for the same reason.

    I use a Berhringer FCB-1010 foot controller and one pedal can be mapped to CC1, so two handed play is possible with that set up.

  3. #3
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona
    Posts
    4,046

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    The mod wheel was used in the Kontakt version because CC7 or CC11 didn't allow filtering plus volume control. So CC1 was used as it could do this.

    Jim

  4. #4

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    An expression foot pedal is a very common and inexpensive controller.

    Quote Originally Posted by L0W View Post
    As I recall it, the mod wheel was chosen as it was the most common controller available to most keyboard users. Making the main expression controller code something else would have meant users would have had to have/buy an additional controller to use GPO out of the box (or be locked into midi-controller editing), so possibly limiting its marketability. Also, MW controller is/had been established in other libraries (SAM, VSL) probably for the same reason.

    I use a Berhringer FCB-1010 foot controller and one pedal can be mapped to CC1, so two handed play is possible with that set up.

  5. #5

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn View Post
    The mod wheel was used in the Kontakt version because CC7 or CC11 didn't allow filtering plus volume control. So CC1 was used as it could do this.

    Jim
    What is meant by filtering?

    Is it just Kontakt that doesn't allow filtering with CC11? What about Aria? Still true in the newer versions of Kontakt, such as Kontakt 5?

  6. #6

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    There's disagreement about the difference between using CC1 and using CC11 - or CC2 for that matter. The "filtering" Jim's talking about is the difference in timbre when using CC1 volume control, so higher volumes have a brighter sound. This was a clever way to program the samples instead of using multiple sample layers.

    In my current set up I'm using an Expression pedal for my Garritan volume control, so that my mod wheel is available for modulation when needed, and another map in my keyboard changes mod wheel to Aftertouch for instruments that respond to that for vibrato.

    I've been happy, thinking CC11 was giving me the same results as CC1 - When using it, the mod wheel control moves in ARIA, making it appear to be interchangeable.

    But there are folks who think CC11 is still not giving the full sonic control that CC1 does. So I have this question in to one of the main Garritan programmers to hopefully settle this question.

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    FINALLY - The definitive word on the question of using CC1 or CC11 in Garritan Libraries.

    I notice once in awhile on the Forum that someone will say only CC1 can control both timbre and volume with Garritan instruments, and that CC11 only controls volume. I go quietly on my way using CC11, because that's the most practical thing for me to do with my set up.

    I posed the question to Garritan developer Chad Beckwith, who posts here on a regular basis. I wanted to know if I was indeed incorrect about CC11 doing the same job as CC1. His answer - Yes it does. To quote him:

    "What's happening is that there is a MIDI pre-processor that interprets your CC11 data, then it converts it to MIDI CC1 data. So essentially when you send Expression MIDI CC11 it will change the instrument just in the exact same way that you move MIDI CC1. This is because the instrument is actually receiving MIDI CC1 after the conversion...

    An easy way to tell if an instrument is doing this is if they contain the following opcodes within the sfz instrument:

    <midi>
    type=com.Garritan.Legacy.MIDI.Expression

    This was part of Tom's design so that you can set your volume with CC7. Then using modulation wheel CC1 you could crescendo and decrescendo as needed in real-time within your sequence (on notes that are sustaining or already triggered, etc). A really powerful way of expression when it was first designed by Tom, now you'll find other sound libraries mimicking this technique."


    GPO, JABB and CMB all behave the same way, with CC11 doing exactly what CC1 does. WORLD uses this on some of its instruments, others are programmed differently. IO uses it to some degree also.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    Thank you for the clarification, Randy.

    It was my impression that what you have described was the way it works, as my inserted cc#11 moves seemed to activate the ARIA mod wheel while a MIDI file is being played.

    But it's always nice to have a theory proven or confirmed.

    I'd always assumed the mod wheel was used because:
    1. it is present in almost every keyboard controller, and
    2. many people probably don't have an expression pedal, then
    3. it's just SO convenient to play right handed and control left handed, lastly
    4. can one exercise as fine a level of control with a foot pedal?

    I was unaware of the issues with the Kontakt player as I started with GPO4.

    Thanks again for the info.
    SysExJohn.

  9. #9

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    Quote Originally Posted by SysExJohn View Post
    Thank you for the clarification, Randy.

    It was my impression that what you have described was the way it works, as my inserted cc#11 moves seemed to activate the ARIA mod wheel while a MIDI file is being played...
    Hi, John - Since it's a fairly important issue, considering the confusion there's been on the topic, I want to clarify something.

    There's never been any doubt about CC11 controlling ARIA volume, and the GUI's mod wheel moving when using CC1. What some users thought, regardless of the visual feedback, was that CC11 wasn't as good to use because timbre filtering wasn't being engaged. But it is - CC11 is interpreted as CC1 in ARIA - hence the mod wheel moving and all of the programming being engaged, just as if a keyboard's mod wheel has been used.

    It's important for users to know that CC11 is indeed totally interchangeable with CC11 - That helps people who have keyboards like my Roland A-800 Pro. It has a spring action "mod stick" - and that makes it impractical for using as a volume controller since it snaps back to zero the second you're not touching it. That makes it perfect for what CC1 is usually used for, vibrato modulation, but not good for the special Garritan usage of CC1. So when I bought the keyboard, I anticipated the need for an Expression pedal. Now I have all my bases covered, and in using CC11 instead of CC1, I'm not using an inferior method of volume control.

    Randy

  10. #10

    Re: Why the mod wheel?

    Hi Randy,
    It never occurred to me that cc#11 wouldn't change both the volume and the timbre at the same time.
    It would be kinda insane programming to do one and not the other.
    And one's ears are proof enough that it changes both.

    Therefore, presumably, the same is true for cc#2, for those EWI players out there?
    I see no reason why not.
    Regards,
    John.

Go Back to forum

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •