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Topic: Aria controls, not automatable

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  1. #1

    Aria controls, not automatable

    Hi!

    Using JABB3 with Aria 1.111

    In Reaper I'd like to be able to have a few controls automated as envelopes in lanes.
    But in the ARIA GUI the knobs are not showing up as automatable.
    So, I'm using CC-events, that works ok, but there's many things I miss with the parameters not showing themselves to Reaper.
    (learn, parametermodulation and show control in track)

    Is there an update for this?
    Any info/help?

    BTW: I'm quite satisfied with how the library is sounding and the relative low cpu-consumption of the Aria-engine.

    Best

  2. #2

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
    Hi!

    Using JABB3 with Aria 1.111

    In Reaper I'd like to be able to have a few controls automated as envelopes in lanes.
    But in the ARIA GUI the knobs are not showing up as automatable...
    Hi, G-Sun

    What controls are you wanting to control? Here's a screenshot of the Controls window for a Flugelhorn in JABB. There are 14 parameters for the instrument all controllable and automatable, with the associated MIDI CC # next to each knob:



    If you want to automate ARIA's mixer, CC7 will control the faders and CC10 will control the pans.

    I recommend you do even more automation and control with the Audio tracks in Reaper.

    Randy

  3. #3

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post

    I recommend you do even more automation and control with the Audio tracks in Reaper.

    Randy
    Thanks Randy!
    Yes, I know I can control the knobs with cc-events.
    However, when I use another plugins (most other plugins), I can do like this:


  4. #4

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
    Thanks Randy!
    Yes, I know I can control the knobs with cc-events.
    However, when I use another plugins (most other plugins), I can do like this (IMG):
    Right, I was hoping using all those CCs would be enough for you want. This is correct that ARIA isn't controlled by that kind of automation.

    Somewhere in the dark recesses of these Forum archives is a good post from one of the main Garritan developers where he talks about why it was decided this kind of automation wouldn't be enabled. As I recall, he was basically explaining that automation of that sort isn't as accurate as users think it is, and the developers didn't see advantage to including it.

    What specifically are you wanting to automate that you can't control either with MIDI CCs or your software?

    Randy

  5. #5

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    What specifically are you wanting to automate that you can't control either with MIDI CCs or your software?
    Ok thanks!
    Well I'm trying to find a workflow regarding parameters not jumping around.
    Now, if I have a track with let's say 5 clips of midi separated in time, all is fine if I play it from the beginning.
    But if I start somewhere after first clip, the cc events (in first clip) defining parameters are missing for Aria, and often set to zero (e.g. modulation).
    So, I was hoping putting an envelope on the track would help me with that.
    And there are other possibilities with envelopes and parameter-modulation as well.

  6. #6

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
    Ok thanks!
    Well I'm trying to find a workflow regarding parameters not jumping around.
    Now, if I have a track with let's say 5 clips of midi separated in time, all is fine if I play it from the beginning.
    But if I start somewhere after first clip, the cc events (in first clip) defining parameters are missing for Aria, and often set to zero (e.g. modulation).
    So, I was hoping putting an envelope on the track would help me with that.
    And there are other possibilities with envelopes and parameter-modulation as well.
    Hello again, G-Sun - Thanks for the reply.

    Ah - your software, Reaper, is re-setting your CC values to zero when you stop playback. I use Sonar, and don't know if this is available in Reaper since I've never used that program, but I'm betting there has to be a setting somewhere which is like this:

    --In Sonar, in Project Settings, there's a default setting "Zero controllers when playback stops." That does exactly as it says, setting any CCs to zero every time you stop. That can be useful in some situations I suppose, but it's disaster for a Garritan user because CC1, which controls volume, goes down to nothing all the time - and that's the most common ?? new users have.

    So, obviously in Sonar what users have to do is un-check that default setting. Once they do, when a project is stopped/paused, whatever the last CC values were stay in effect. If you had CC1 up to 100 when you stopped, that's exactly what you'll get when you start playback again.

    Look around - Reaper has to have a way of over-riding it's default - and it's obviously zeroing controllers in the same way Sonar does without the default box being un-checked. Look for that.

    Randy

  7. #7

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by rbowser- View Post
    Look around - Reaper has to have a way of over-riding it's default - and it's obviously zeroing controllers in the same way Sonar does without the default box being un-checked. Look for that.
    You're quite right. I found it under midi-settings:



    I expect everything will work better now
    (I would have liked the option to use the envelope and such, but this was the most important)

    Thanks!

  8. #8

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
    You're quite right. I found it under midi-settings: (IMG)I expect everything will work better now.
    (I would have liked the option to use the envelope and such, but this was the most important)

    Thanks!
    That's great - I was going to be pretty surprised if Reaper didn't have a similar option. Good - you indeed won't have your volume and other parameters re-set to zero now when you stop and start your project.

    People refer to "envelopes" when working with MIDI CCs, but it's never quite computed with me. I'd been using Sonar for years before I saw on a thread somewhere that there actually are envelopes available on clips for Velocity and CCs. Seems so odd to me. I do almost all of my work in the Piano Roll View, with separate controller panes for each CC I'm using. When I record and then edit CC1, for instance, it's not an "envelope" - it's the stream of CC data, visualized in the pane.

    The procedures which are "automation" to me are when I record fader volume in real time, during the mixing process. And I'll automate panning if a sound needs to move. And, like you mentioned earlier on this thread, I'll right click plugins to access parameters that can be automated, so I can change an EQ setting during the course of a project, or turn a reverb on and off, change the frequency a wah wah plugin is effecting - etc. But those are all audio effects, not synths.

    So, coming from what I'm used to in my work flow, I still don't understand what you'd want to actually "automate" in ARIA. If you're wanting to automate audio parameters, that should be done on the associated audio tracks inside Reaper, automating the faders etc. But to control the performance of an instrument loaded in ARIA - the Piano Roll View was designed for that kind of work.

    Randy

  9. #9

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Thanks!

    Well, some cc-events are like moments in time, like: Legato on/off/auto, release-type and so one.
    But to me it vibrato-volume, modulation, portamento and such are better represented by envelopes. But it maybe don't fit that well with the midi-system.
    Of course Reapers CC-editingis not top in class either, so that's a part of the story

  10. #10

    Re: Aria controls, not automatable

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
    Thanks!

    Well, some cc-events are like moments in time, like: Legato on/off/auto, release-type and so one.
    But to me it vibrato-volume, modulation, portamento and such are better represented by envelopes. But it maybe don't fit that well with the midi-system.
    Of course Reapers CC-editingis not top in class either, so that's a part of the story
    I guess it's a matter of what we're used to. I've used Sonar for years, and the Piano Roll View was designed to be the heart of MIDI, as it is in most other DAW software, and it really is exactly that. I Live in the PRV. CC data is mostly recorded in real time, and the data is seen there in the PRV, graphically associated with the notes so it's all perfectly clear. And of course hand editing can be done there. Working in the Track View and changing all that to envelopes would be really clumsy for me - I've experimented with it and it's more like drawing a picture of what I want instead of just Doing what I want directly.

    I dunno, I don't use Reaper, but I've heard MIDI implementation is behind other programs. That could be part of it.

    Randy

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