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Topic: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

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  1. #1

    Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    Hello! I'm trying to find my way around GPO4 and I keep having a recurring problem. If I import a midi file (which I often do as I use various synth programs) my mod setting always goes back to zero. Even though the mod setting was not zero on the recorded track. Does that make sense? For example, I record a string part in Kontakt with mod wheel up. Playback is fine. I then insert GPO, and copy the previously recoded midi file into GPO. Mod setting is zero. If I turn it up playback is fine. As soon as I hit stop it goes back to zero. I tried hitting record on the GPO track and recording just the mod wheel over the track. Still goes back to zero. If I actually record directly in the GPO track, mod setting is just fine. It's only when I import or copy. Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? I'm using Sonar X1, by the way.

    Thanks!!!

  2. #2

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    Go to the project section in preferences and under midi section: uncheck Zero controllers when play stops and patch controller search back before play stops. The same thing happened to me with Instant Orchestra. It is a bit different with X1, I only tried the demo but the options are similar. The two options to uncheck should be in there somewhere.

  3. #3

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    Thank you so much. That indeed solved it! It was driving me crazy. Thanks for helping me NOT beat my head against the table. It starts to hurt after a while.

  4. #4

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    No worries. Good luck on your compositions and music!

  5. #5

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    Hi, Wineshop - sururick has already nimbly solved your problem.

    I want to point out that for years now, ever since GPO came out, that particular issue has been the #1 problem for Sonar issues. You can see the logic now - If your controller data is re-set to zero every time you stop playback, then your volume will constantly be zooming down to nothing. This zero re-set default in Sonar works for most synths and samplers since most don't use CC1 (Mod Wheel) for volume.

    Here's more - From what you say in your post, I have the impression that you're only inserting single bits of CC1 data here and there in your projects. If so, you're missing one of the prim ingredients for making your music sound more natural and dynamic:

    --Record (or draw in) CC1 data in a continuous way. It should be almost constantly shifting, at least to small degrees. Sustained notes which have some volume movement to them sound much more realistic than unwavering, synth-like unchanging notes. The idea is to Play your virtual instruments. The GPO manual has excellent advice on that topic. It really isn't an option - you must control your instrument volumes in a dynamic way, or you're defeating 1/2 of GPO's potential effectiveness.

    Here's something from your post that makes it sound like there's something awkward in your work flow:
    Quote Originally Posted by wineshop View Post
    ...I record a string part in Kontakt with mod wheel up. Playback is fine. I then insert GPO, and copy the previously recoded midi file into GPO...
    I think you meant to say you copy the MIDI track and paste it into a new track - you can't paste it "into GPO." But it sounds like you may be doing some unnecessary work:

    --MIDI data is completely democratic. It doesn't care what synth/sampler it's driving. With one track of MIDI, all you need to do is keep changing where that data is going in order to try it out in different synths - no need to copy and paste the data. So you have your Kontakt strings playing a track - that same track can be switched to drive ARIA/GPO.

    If you're intending to layer the two string patches from the two different sources, then you would need to make copies of the MIDI track.

    Sounds like you're off too a good start though. As questions arise, don't hesitate to post them here in General Discussion.

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    Wow, Randy. Thank you for that. I did not even consider that I can use the same Midi track for different synths, but you are completely correct. Now I see that. You just saved me an unnecessary step, while also cluttering up my track view less. As for mod wheel - granted I'm new to this - but I have some patches where the mod wheel does nothing. One string patch will allow control, a different one and the wheel does nothing. I presume this is written into that particular sample. But how do I create expression when it does not utilize CC1?

  7. #7

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    Quote Originally Posted by wineshop View Post
    Wow, Randy. Thank you for that. I did not even consider that I can use the same Midi track for different synths, but you are completely correct. Now I see that. You just saved me an unnecessary step, while also cluttering up my track view less. As for mod wheel - granted I'm new to this - but I have some patches where the mod wheel does nothing. One string patch will allow control, a different one and the wheel does nothing. I presume this is written into that particular sample. But how do I create expression when it does not utilize CC1?
    Glad that tip made sense, wineshop.

    But now for The Rest of the Story.

    In a nutshell, while MIDI data exists on its own, independent of any particular synth/sampler, when you use a MIDI track to play something different than the synth originally used, there's always some adaptation of the data required. That's because every synth/sampler and every instrument responds to data uniquely.

    Sometimes the specific differences between how one synth or instrument behaves compared to another can be subtle. A good example is a String patch - It may be programmed to have a slow, swelling attack (start of the sound). It's very likely that this patch will come in late when you have it play the MIDI track developed using a different string patch which has a faster attack. In that case, the adaptation involved is to move the track slightly to the left so all the notes start a little early, and at the peak of the swell, those notes are on the beat where they're needed.

    Mod Wheel, which generates MIDI Continuous Controller 1 is generally used for Vibrato control. That's how CC1 is specified in the basic MIDI specification. But developers can use the controllers however they want. In the case of the Garritan Libraries, it was decided that CC1 would control volume instead of vibrato. One reason for that is that almost every user has a Mod Wheel, so it's a readily available control for playing the volume of instruments.

    But most other non-Garritan Libraries of sounds don't use CC1 for volume. If they use CC1 at all, it's most often used for vibrato, as I said above.

    So if you have a MIDI track that was created with the more common sort of MIDI instrument, it probably won't have CC1 data in it. When you try to have a Garritan instrument play that track, the adaptation you'll need to do is record CC1 volume data.

    Here's something else helpful - Expression is CC11. That control is used for volume control as per the MIDI specification. ARIA interprets CC11 exactly as it does CC1. In other words, CC11 is a substitute for Garritan volume control. That's what I use, with CC11 tied to my foot volume pedal.

    Most, but not all, MIDI instruments can use CC11 for volume. So if you have a MIDI track with CC11 volume data in it, that track will be universally compatible with generic string patches and Garritan strings.

    Hope that helps.

    Randy

  8. #8

    Re: Mod wheel value keeps going back to zero (GPO4)

    That definitely helps, Randy. Thank you! I admit I've got a lot to learn and I hope you don't mind me posting from time to time here asking for more advice. I've learned a lot from just searching and reading. Plus I really want to get good at doing this. Not just average, but really good. Not John Williams good, but believable by the average listener. I've always pushed myself musically to be very good at whatever endeavor I'm currently into. And right now I'm loving movie scores modern classics. So I'm having fun trying to create what I hear in my head. I'm miles from being able to do that, so I really appreciate the bits of advice!

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