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Topic: Layers in GIGA

  1. #1

    Layers in GIGA

    People are always suggesting to layer several Orch sounds to get \"the\" sound we\'re looking for. I\'m wondering if there\'s a quicker way to layer in Giga then I\'m doing. For example, with my JV 1080 i could set up a performance patch and set part 1-3 to recieve on MIDI chan. 1. But in Giga (as best as I can tell) the parts are tied to the MIDI channel. So what I do usually is either record the track and the copy/paste it onto another channel to get the layer, or I\'ll set up a layer in Logic - which is really fine but it\'s somewhat laborious. Unless that is I\'m doing it wrong. Here\'s how I do it:

    In my environment I have a \"multi-channel\" instrument asssigned to Giga. That works great, but when i want to layer I have to creat 3 new instruments. 1) The new intrument that I will call \"layer\". And then 2 new instruments that will only transmit on the desired channel to Giga. Is this correct\" Or is there a way from a single instrument to cable it to seperate channels in a multi-instrument?

  2. #2

    Re: Layers in GIGA

    I\'m sure that in V3 instrument slots won\'t have hardwired midi channel numbers.

    That doesn\'t solve your current situation though.

    Have you considered arming multiple tracks in Logic for multi record? This works in Cubase - if you set four tracks in multi record, they all record what is coming in on the current midi channel, but send the data out on whatever channel is set for each track.

    The main bummer is that you end up with three or four identical tracks, just assigned to different channels - but at least it avoids most of the cut and paste and having to build special instruments in the environment.

  3. #3

    Re: Layers in GIGA


    I don\'t have any advice in response to your question regarding accessing multiple patches in Gigastudio since I don\'\'t use Logic and have not even linked ports in Gigastudio. Excuse me for going slightly off-topic here, but the technique of layering different libraries to get a \"sound\" is not best accomplished by any of these methods.

    What makes layering work is that each layer is played seperately. There is practically never an ensemble string, brass, wind, even percussion part that I don\'t play at least two or three times using different libraries, or at least different patches from the same library. It is the variation inherent in each performance of a violins or horns line that best mimics what happens in a real orchestra where each player is playing the part with a slightly different sound, tuning, timing, etc., than the next player. Granted, these differences are not generally that pronounced in a real orchestra, but taken all together they result in what we hear as a string section or whatever. I wouldn\'t suggest intentionally playing the layered parts radically different. In the course of trying to play each layer just like the last one, you will inevitably play with enough of a difference that it will flesh out the sound that one pass can\'t do.

    Maybe you\'ve already tried this, and I get from your question that you\'d really like a quick and convenient way to get multiple sounds to go down at one time, so
    I realize I\'m probably not helping. However, if you\'re serious about getting the most out of your sounds and getting as close to the real thing as you can, I think the only way to do that is to play through each part a few times.

    Hope that\'s in some way helpful.

  4. #4

    Re: Layers in GIGA

    Thank bjean. That\'s actually good advice. The last string mock ups I did I used 3 patches and played them all seperate simply because it was quicker to hit key switches playing them separate then trying to cut and paste. They were the most believeable mock ups i\'ve done. The frustration is that if you start with just the attack patch, you get quick attacks, but you can\'t tell where the line is going! And if you start with the sustain patch, I find myself always playing way ahead of the beat to compensate for the lack of attack - errrrr. Ultimately I just want a patch that responds to what I\'m playing, switches articulations before I play them, and over all sounds just like the real thing with pretty much no effort [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Can anyone teleport me to heaven?!

    Do you use the same technique for Horns as well? Any other techniques like the ones above would be welcome discussion!!!!

  5. #5

    Re: Layers in GIGA

    The Jeff Beal interview popped into my head when I read your post. He talked about something pretty similar to this that you may want to try.

    Re. midi orchestration - I also have set up a lot of my orchestra sounds using a channel splitter object in logic. This means I can have one \"track\" in logic which is routed to up to 16 sounds, depending on which channel I send from the controller keyboard. This is esp. useful for a big library such as GOS. I have it set up so each string section is the same virtual routing - i.e., pizz is always channel 9, vibrato long bows, channel 1, non vibrato, channel 2 etc.

    This way it\'s really easy to experiment with different doublings, combinations in the string library, without having to stop and go through a lot of cumbersome steps. I.e. record a violin part using midi channel 1 (vibrato exp). Copy to 2nd violins, and change to midi channel 3 (con sord).
    - Jeff Beal
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hope this helps,
    Ben Ripley

  6. #6

    Re: Layers in GIGA


    In reference to your question about horns. I have discovered that the Dan Dean Brass sections have given me a lot realism without having to load in tons of articulations.

    I use the Horns portato patch with the release trail, and this really works for me. I can get a lighter staccato, or use an accent and get a good strong starting attack. This collection of brass has up to eight dynamic layers so I think that makes a hugh difference.

    You could get so much with three patches total: staccto, portato, and non-vibrato sustain. Just remember to use the release trails.

  7. #7

    Re: Layers in GIGA

    I also wanted to let you know that these brass sections work very well by themselves.

  8. #8

    Re: Layers in GIGA


    Until they perfect that whole brain wave-->MIDI technology, I\'m afraid it will still take some effort! The way I look at it is that, for better or worse, when I compose at the computer I\'m the writer, orchestrator and player (engineer and mixer, too, but that\'s another thread). That is no small undertaking, so the fact that it requires this much energy is an acceptable price to pay for getting the sound of an orchestra in my room. On the other hand, there is also the time issue, which mandates that the techniques we use not be too complicated or time consuming.

    So, as far as my basic approach, it goes something like this: Let\'s say it\'s a p to mf string part--melody with chordal backing. I tend to start with a basic sustained string patch--I\'m still very partial to the Roland Orch p strings. It\'s a sustained patch, not much attack, but has a pleasing sound, especially for slower passages. I record the entire string section part with that patch, maybe breaking it up onto a couple of MIDI tracks so I have seperate control over the high string parts vs. the low parts.Then, I\'ll play the violin lines with a vlns patch from Vitous. Finally, I\'ll add in a touch of a solo vln from AO or Roland for the 1st vln line. I repeat this process for violas and cellos. With the basses I tend to forego the solo line for time sake, but you could add a solo bass pass, too.

    This is just one example. There are newer libraries, both section and solo, that could replace any of the ones I mentioned. If it\'s a more aggressive attack kind of line, obviously I won\'t use Orch p. I would recommend that you don\'t start with the attack patch. Start with the sustained patch that comes closest to what you\'re looking for, even if it tends to drag a bit. You can nudge that track forward a bit in your sequencer before recording the other parts. Then you have something to play to with your attack patch and the others you\'re using.

    I\'ve found that the magic number is three. I learned years ago that when overdubbing real strings, or background vocals, etc., it takes three passes to really round out the sound. This principle seems to translate to the MIDI world as well. I rarely use more than three patches per part (it tends to get muddy after three)and never three passes of the same size samples, meaning don\'t record three tracks where all the patches are a recording of huge string sections. Sharmy and others on this forum have talked about using SI strings to great effect and aside from the sound of the samples, I think the fact that the sections in that library are more chamber-sized makes them perfect for layering in with the larger libraries.

    Yes, I use the same technique with horns, trumpets and bones. I must add, however, that I\'ve just started using the SAM bones and have found that I\'m layering very little (same for the horns). Capturing room ambience along with the sound makes it less necessary to fill out the sound with other libraries.

    All this applies to percussion, too, although to a lesser degree. Snares sound great by doubling your part from LOP or wherever, with G-Town\'s church snares.

    There was a thread a couple weeks ago that started talking about other techniques. Have you checked that out?

    Good kuck.

  9. #9

    Re: Layers in GIGA

    Thanks Bjean! Great comments. Confirms a lot of things I\'ve been toying with, also put some great techniques in my head.

    I\'m do have a couple questions though...

    1) When working with brass (SAM in particular), do you layer the Solo patch on top of the section?

    2) could you be so kind as to expand on your ideas of doubling perc? I\'ve never thought of that except with some snares I\'ve doubled a few things, simply that one snare gave me body and one gave me attack, but other then that I\'ve never thought of this. Do you do it with Cymbs? Timp? Aux Perc? Any insight into what you\'re refering to would be great!

    Also, I think I missed the thread you\'re talking about that was discussed recently on here... do you recalll the title? I\'m going to go look for it!


  10. #10

    Re: Layers in GIGA

    I\'m not sure if I\'m understanding the question quite right. But what the heck, I\'ll take a stab at it. You should be able to do this from the giga side. If your giga box has a single midi in port. You can assign this port to all four of the nemesys out ports in the hardware/routing tab. This way you can layer up to four instruments per midi channel. To be able to mix them independently, you need to assign them to different mixer inputs. There are other drawbacks as well, but for quick layering it works. Also, I am in total agreement with Bjean\'s comments about layering orchestral instruments. I\'ve only used this technique for fx type setups.

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